Episode 33
The power of testimonials
Testimonials aren’t about peacocking or making the business look good, but about providing value to prospective clients and sharing existing clients’ transformations.
In this discussion, B2B business consultant Ian Edwards explores the importance of asking intentional questions to understand the client's metrics for success, the need for quality over quantity of testimonials, and the role of testimonials in bridging the decision gap between promised results and trust in the service provider.
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Transcript
I think it'll be helpful and energizing for us to just.
Carlos:Uh, have you say hi in the chat.
Carlos:That'd be very nice.
Carlos:Um, ben, take this seriously.
Carlos:This is, this is, this is like proper business stuff.
Carlos:Ian, welcome.
Carlos:Ever since we were talking, uh, a couple of weeks ago, um, and you were sharing your thoughts and ideas around testimonials, I thought, Ooh, this sounds like something very useful, particularly given the kind of work and the kind of things we talk about here on Waking up to Money.
Carlos:So, put some context onto this.
Carlos:I'm specifically interested in this conversation because of, uh, our work.
Carlos:Uh, we run a group coaching program, which is starting next week.
Carlos:Um, we have a community, an online community.
Carlos:I have done, uh, and I do do a lot of one-to-one coaching.
Carlos:Uh, and so as a, as a coach, it's interesting to understand how to attract the right people.
Carlos:And considering what we do with Waking Up to Money and the Happy Pricing course as well is like how, you know, on one level we want to talk about how testimonials, uh, impacts and influences, uh, and informs how we price and we wanna get people on the Happy Pricing course.
Carlos:It's like, how do we.
Carlos:The testimonials of past, uh, alumni to, to, um, invite the right people onto the course, uh, so that they know what they're getting into and they understand the value of what we're doing?
Ben:I was also, when you kind of brought up the idea of doing this, I reminded myself that, uh, about nine months ago, I did suggest that maybe the testimonials that we, you should describe more of the journey that people went on, uh, then did absolutely nothing about that whatsoever until you reminded me of it by instigating this conversation.
Ben:So, no, I'm, I'm very happy to have this conversation to remind myself of, uh, the kind of power of journey, the power of change.
Carlos:So, um, Ian, why don't you first Kick us off by introducing yourself a bit, maybe a, a little bit of what the work you do now, and maybe and the relevance of why you are here.
Carlos:You know, what, what, what is it about testimonials and your work that is, that is so connected?
Ian:Well, uh, I, I, I, I run two businesses.
Ian:I'll talk about one.
Ian:Uh, and the one, uh, helps B2B businesses that sell the invisible.
Ian:So they're selling a service knowledge or technology solution, but what I help them do is to better understand their client by looking at things from the client backwards, which is part of that conversation leads to, uh, the testimonial process.
Ian:But the insights from those conversations sharpen marketing, connect marketing and sales, so it aligns them so they work together.
Ian:Improves the customer experience.
Ian:And so customer success, which means subsequent testimonials get even better.
Carlos:So it sounds like a virtuous spiral if you actually do this well.
Ian:So my clients tell me.
Carlos:awesome.
Carlos:So I think, why don't we kick off with, uh, what's a bad testimonial?
Ian:When, when you get a testimonial, you tend to get a testimonial, which you look at to make yourself feel good or make your colleagues feel good.
Ian:And peacocking has got nothing whatsoever to do with testimonials.
Ian:It's, it's a nice little add-on.
Ian:And if you have testimonials, which shall we say, say that you are the best, you are the leading, you are the preeminent, hopefully not the fastest or the cheapest because those are transient things.
Ian:Or they talk about your client, your, the fantastic experience they had working with you and how nice you were and all these sort of vacuous things.
Ian:They won't make you stand out for your competitors, but probably they'll look the same as a testimonial for just about anyone in any market.
Ian:So they may make you feel good about yourself, but that's not the real point.
Ian:But they won't make a prospect feel good about choosing to work with you.
Carlos:So it sounds like, you know, a whole load of sentences maybe on your website saying, oh, Carlos is lovely.
Carlos:Carlos is amazing.
Carlos:Carlos has this whole space really.
Carlos:Well, I'm trying to think of all the nice things I do.
Carlos:Um, anyway, but that whole aspect of bigging up your ego it sounds like.
Ian:Or it can mean simple things.
Ian:I mean, one of my favorite ones, and I won't say where they're from, is from an award-winning IFA it's got on their website and uh, one of their customers said, I'd recommend this company to anyone, because they always turn up when they say they are going to.
Ian:Now I'd always fancy a little bit more outta my IFA than that.
Carlos:I, I, I really love the AA because they always turn up to fix my car.
Ben:Good.
Carlos:Okay, so on that though, I'm gonna, this is an interesting thing around, uh, asking for testimonials or, or wanting the right testimonials.
Carlos:So, like a, a personal perspective.
Carlos:It feels like one of the reasons why I sometimes, or a lot of the time didn't ask for testimonials was kind of, I was scared about any negative feedback.
Carlos:And I think another aspect of it was I felt that maybe if I talk to some of my customers, they might not want to be honest enough or they just want to hear, they might just tell me what I want to hear.
Carlos:And so there, there was that real lack of clarity as to what I was supposed to be doing with these testimonials and a bit of a fear about, okay, this whole process of getting this information from clients.
Ben:I'd say I was quite lazy about testimonials and by that I mean I do, I'm kind of happy asking for them.
Ben:So not, but kind of lazy in the sense of not kind of investing in understanding the story really, I think to everything that's kind of, you talk about so lazy in the sense of asking the client, write some words, you know, client sort of defaults to the kind of, the easy response to, you know, which, uh, Ian's phrase, the kind of peacocking.
Ben:So I'm happy, happy asking, but kind of lazy in the care I take around
Ian:Can I ask you a question, Ben?
Ian:Do, do you deliver with the expectation of a testimonial or do you deliver in the hope of?
Ben:Probably in expectation of, uh, but the, the actual asking for is often an afterthought.
Ben:So by that I kind of mean the work that I would do, I would expect to link to change.
Ben:I would expect to link to outcome.
Ben:I would expect for, you know, one of the things we talk about on the kind of pricing course is essentially guys and customers are buying a change.
Ben:They want, they're in this state and they want to go to this state.
Ben:Uh, and, uh, I, all the work that I do with clients sort of understands and expects a change.
Ben:So in that sense, the work that I do should ex, I would expect a testimonial whether I actually go through the process of doing it, that becomes an afterthought, if that makes sense.
Ben:So the, the actual act or getting the testimonial is often an afterthought, although the kind of work itself is done on the expectation of a change being kind of implicit in it.
Ian:The reason for asking the question is, is I think it's always worth letting clients know at an early stage that, referrals maybe are a large part of your business.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:And on the back of this, you would, your, you will deliver such quality of work that you, uh, would hope that the client would be open to a testimonial at the end of it.
Ian:Now, if you're able to define exactly what they're expecting out of it, outta the engagement, and then in some way over-deliver.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:They can't say no.
Ian:Or it's very difficult for them to say no.
Ian:So if you are delivering exactly what they wanted and some, then the testimonial becomes that much more powerful.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:I'm very much with Ben, particularly when I'm even running the agency.
Carlos:I think Laurence was a bit better at me of this, but I, I was, I never really went into, did the work with the thought of what the testimonial would be.
Carlos:And then part of it I think was I was very focused on the work itself.
Carlos:I, the joy of the doing rather than necessarily, uh, being focused on the business outcome.
Carlos:You know, so what I was very much focused on the technical stuff, so building complicated software and then making that software work, but with not much of an eye as to why that was a very importance, a business level.
Carlos:It was very much how I can solve a problem, that's great.
Carlos:And I think about that now as well, even with my self early coaching work is like, oh, I just, I love holding space.
Carlos:I love being able to reflect and understand someone and where they're trying to get to, but without this kind of clarity of an outcome or an objective.
Carlos:And so there's a, there's, I think there's two things here.
Carlos:One is the, I think it's being much more clear as what I'm hearing now from you is like being more intentional about this change from the beginning and setting the scene as to where we're trying to get to.
Carlos:And also it sounds like being more open about, okay, part of my business and survive or being around is to make sure that I get people who can set, tell the story of, of the success of working with me.
Carlos:But then there's another aspect for me about when the, the journeys are emergent, a lot like these conversations where you have an intention of getting somewhere, but you potentially get somewhere completely different.
Carlos:And how that, affects.
Carlos:And I, I see that also with software, particularly with startups, is like you have, they start off with one idea and you sometimes end up with a completely different idea.
Carlos:Does that affect how you think about testimonials or that, is that just details that really don't matter as much?
Ian:No, I I think those are, are, are sort of, uh, arrange of details, but I think when we're thinking inwardly, we can spend an awful lot of time doing things which we think the client wants out of a testimonial conversation.
Ian:And, and I always recommend a conversation.
Ian:You actually find out the bits that matter.
Ian:And that enables you to focus on those key things as part of a testimonial,
Ian:I've noticed in the chat that Claire has, uh, put in, she's, uh, told you to drop a customer with three questions which you can do and craft into a testimonial.
Ian:The problem with that is, is that customers who are short on time, cuz they are, and you are just another take, trying to grab a little bit more time outta their day when left to their own devices, often give fairly short answers.
Ian:And if you ask the same three questions, every testimonial looks exactly the same.
Ian:And when they look exactly the same, they don't look believable.
Ian:So, I think it's, you one should be intentional about what one does, Carlos, but it needs to be intentional in terms of is this providing value to the client at the end of the day, in a way it's something that they value?
Ian:Not that it's providing value, which they don't particularly value.
Carlos:Because there's the perceived value from a a supplier's perspective.
Carlos:The way I'm interpreting this is like, oh yeah, I've built this really, and I'm gonna talk about software times when I was built, when I was working in the agency.
Carlos:Like, oh, I built this really intricate, beautiful, elegant solution to this very specific problem.
Carlos:And then there's the, well, will I get any more customers?
Carlos:Or is is my business actually growing?
Carlos:Or are the users having a pleasant experience with this piece of software, uh, that then increases the bottom line, for instance?
Ian:Yeah, I mean, it's how it's impacted for their day-to-day work.
Ian:It's how it's impacted of the individual.
Ian:It's how impacted the person emotionally.
Ian:It's how it's impacted the organization as a whole.
Ian:It just depends on with what sort of client you're working with.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:You know, if you're working with, uh, you know, just with solopreneurs, it's different to if you're working with, uh, multinationals
Ben:And likewise, you know, the, the, uh, the context for the, the kind of the buying individual, whether it's a solopreneur, whether it's a multinational on one day, is different to how it might be on another day.
Ben:And, and I think that what I really like about what you are saying, uh, there in this kind of idea of kind of conversation, cause obviously that links sort of completely with how we also like to sort of talk about it on the, the kind of pricing course.
Ben:And I think what I was kind of hearing through this, this kind of idea of journey, because the thing that I was thinking about as you were talking, Ian, uh, when I start a kind of engagement with one of my clients, were, if I might be working with a business, say over kind of nine month, 12 month period.
Ben:One of the things that we talk about on the course and which you are sort of, you are kind of alluding to, you know, is the importance and power of questions.
Ben:Uh, and so, you know, one of the things that kind of, I was doing my kind of personal engagement, which kind of leads, laces, you know, asking the question of the client.
Ben:You know, if we were having this conversation three years from now, what would've changed for you to be happy with your progress?
Ben:And so it kind of points to all of the things which are actually important to them.
Ben:Uh, rather than the things which we might assume to be important to them.
Ben:And also what it also does, it, it, it kind of sets an orientation, it sets a direction of travel and it, you know, it's the client giving you all of their metrics for success.
Ben:And by metrics I mean, you know, the kind of emotions that they want to feel, the kind of tangible things that they might want to change, the intangible things they might want to change.
Ben:And that of course is the source material for doing good work.
Ben:It's the source material.
Ben:Selling.
Ben:Well, it's the source material for pricing well.
Ben:And I guess what you are also pointing to is it's also then the source material for the for, for the, for the testimonial story.
Ian:Uh, absolutely.
Ian:And I, and I think it is, uh, of course, one of the things I would add in into that Ben, is when you're having that conversation about, uh, what, uh, they would like to have to have happened in three years for them to be happy with the outcome, you're producing is something which one would, uh, recur during the course of the engagement.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:Because it, it could well be that with the way one works or the organization works that you change thinking.
Carlos:I just wanted to touch on this idea, because you talked about, you know, whether you were working with a solopreneur or like a multinational or a big company, whatever it is, there's so different stories, transformations that might be happening there.
Carlos:So based on that, I just wanted to maybe just talk about how intentionally using testimonial, you know, being very intentional about how you use testimonials is also part of you working with the right people, which means you being clear about who you want to work with.
Carlos:And this whole thing.
Carlos:I mean, know relates maybe a bit to nicheing, but also around focus of message.
Carlos:Because I think it impacts how we price.
Carlos:And I'm thinking in terms of, in terms of the pricing thing is like one of the things we talk about, the pricing course is like having all these conversations and, and that price is not an objective number.
Carlos:It can shift depending, you know, we price the customer not the job.
Carlos:But at the same time we've had conversations with coaches and various coaching communities around, well, I can't, you know, start changing prices every single time with every different customers.
Carlos:Like, I, I want to be able to have some clarity around the price I'm gonna charge.
Carlos:So, it feels like there's something, a link here between clarity of the types of people that you wanna work with and the change you wanna make and the testimonials that you share.
Ian:One of the things if when we should aim for with testimonials is quant quality is more important than quantity.
Ian:But a quantity of quality testimonials.
Ian:There's too many itities in there, sorry.
Carlos:it's too, too early for titties.
Ben:It's too early in the morning.
Ian:Uh, it's, it is certainly advisor, but what one doesn't want to do is to have too many different types of testimonial for different clients, cuz it confuses a visitor to your website.
Ian:Why that's important is going back as far as 2011, a research company called the Corporate Executive Board found that even then, buyers were 57% through their decision-making process before they reached out to potential supplier or service provider.
Ian:Two years later, serious decisions.
Ian:Another, uh, research company said it was 67%.
Ian:Now I have a clue what it is.
Ian:I don't think anybody does.
Ian:What we know is it's the higher proportion.
Ian:So if your testimonial does not connect with your prospect when they're doing their research, you may never get to the call.
Ian:So it's desperately important that somebody says, this is this particular cus uh, service provider, supplier, does what I want them to do and delivers results.
Carlos:Mm-hmm.
Ian:It's one of the key things that it should do.
Ian:The second thing it should do fellow, is it should bridge the decision gap between the results you promised and the trust they need to work with you, which is how you can increase the price.
Ian:If it does that, the, I is thinking, you know, Carlos, you are the ideal supplier for me.
Ian:I'm reasonably down that road, just certainly on the short.
Ian:And they can then see that testimonial again, or similar testimonials.
Ian:Then all of a sudden, from a pricing perspective, price has gone way down in the pecking order because they've already sold on the value.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:And if they find you first, as opposed to you find them, that is also the case because you are not the seller of wears or services.
Ian:You are on, in their minds to some degree the trusted service provider.
Carlos:What does that mean in terms of price then?
Ben:So, Ian's saying, quite rightly, it's also about the, the kind of, the decision that the decision steps that somebody go through to decide to work with you.
Ben:Of course, firstly is emotional, an emotional response, which they then justify kind of rationally.
Ben:Uh, and I, what I'm sort of getting from what sort of Ian's talking about is the, the role of course, that the kind of testimonial and the stories that we share, uh, through whatever kind of means that we do, the role that those play, that those, those stories and those testimonials play to stoke the emotional, to kind of forge the connection.
Ben:Because, you know, the, the stronger that, the stronger that connection at the emotional level, the more likely, of course, you know, your perspective client is going to want to work with you.
Ben:And the stronger again it feels, the more valuable you are, uh, because the stronger they feel about your ability to help them with what they want helping with.
Ben:One thing I was curious about, uh, Ian, you, you sort of, you've made kind of reference to, so on the one hand, not wanting too many of the same test.
Ben:But equally not wanting too diverse a range of testimonials because people won't kind of connect with them.
Ben:Uh, did I kind of hear those things incorrectly?
Ian:Uh, y y yes and no.
Ian:Uh, when you don many the same testimonials from the same type of customer, but expressed in a different way.
Ben:Mm.
Ian:Because you don't want 'em to appear manufactured.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:So if one, if I looked at your, uh, the at, at a website and they look fairly similar, they don't seem real.
Ian:Mm-hmm.
Ian:I mean, when, if you were to write, get a testimony from a client, the clever thing to do is to ask them to be able to use it in whole or in part.
Ben:Mm.
Ian:The reason for that is you, uh, a well written testimonial will always include some, at least one sound bite and at least one standout paragraph in within a story.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:And you can therefore get testimonials, which may, because of the nature of the engagement, have some similarity, but you can pick out different elements.
Carlos:You said something around whether it's 57% or 67% of the work has already been done by the customer before they make a decision.
Carlos:I'm curious about that.
Carlos:Is that just generally for like a, uh, a B2B type of environment, or would you say that across the board for anyone trying to make a buying decision?
Carlos:And what does that mean in terms of they've already done the majority of work?
Ian:Well, the, the, uh, corporate executive board research was 2011.
Ian:The Serious Decisions research was 2013.
Ian:And, uh, there's been a range of other bits and bombs sort of in between.
Ian:But they were on B2B sales processes.
Ian:You know, and obviously not sort of minor ones.
Ian:They're sort of larger sales person where somebody has actually been doing their research and has online even as far, you know, as far back as 2011 to decide who they would reach out to.
Ian:What that tells us is that a great testimonial will work for you 24 7 365.
Ian:It's your best salesperson.
Ian:And the words of your customers, of course, are stronger than anything you might say.
Ian:So in, in, in essence, they, they're, they're doing, they're doing the work out there.
Ian:And the same thing goes, I think even if you are a solopreneur and you're dealing with other solopreneurs, if people may ask for word of mouth, but they will still go and check you out before they reach out to you, they may just be doing their own independent research before they do that.
Ian:So in essence, it, it makes the decision, will they contact you and how high is price going to be in the equation when they do.
Carlos:Okay, so to finish off, some ideas that you have around how to craft a powerful or useful testimonial.
Carlos:Um, cause you said just sending out kind of a proforma email might not be as helpful as, uh, as it could be.
Carlos:And also you talked about quality versus quantity, but.
Carlos:Quality or quantity of the emotion.
Ian:The best way to get a testimonial is not to leave the customer to do it themselves.
Ian:So if they insist, that's how they would like to do it, is to give them real open-ended questions that you would like answered.
Ian:They don't have to be the same ones every time, you can create a bank of them.
Ian:And what one was trying to do is to discover the transformation they were hoping to get and the transformation they received, and how it's impacted on them and on their business and maybe what reservations they had before they started.
Ian:You know, those sort of sorts of things that you can bring in.
Ian:What you don't want to do is to decide if they say, well, could you write it for me what you can do?
Ian:But that's a pretty unsatisfactory cuz you're just sharing what you would like them to say.
Ian:When you have a conversation and you ask open questions as opposed to ones which are predetermined to give the answer you rec, you hope to get, you get all sorts of interesting feedback, but you then have to decide who is going to write that testimonial.
Ian:Cuz if by virtue of what you do, you may or may not be a copywriter, you may not be a storyteller.
Ian:Neither might your client.
Ian:And certainly they won't afford as much time to the process as you would if you were doing it yourself.
Ian:Uh, so that that's the bit you need to work on, shall we say.
Ian:Uh, but in many cases, if you are trying to do a short, you know, keeping it concise, we're in a information overload.
Ian:So you do, you can have a long testimonial, but if there's not a short bit I can pick out and quickly read, then maybe it could be the best testament in the world, but I'm just gonna pass it by.
Carlos:Ben, any, um, final thoughts before we end on this?
Ben:No, like, just kind of really enjoying the kind of reminder of sort of, you know, being clear about the fact that what your clients and customers are buying is the change of something is good feelings, is solutions to problems.
Ben:And the more we kind of are linked to that in the beginning, the easier it is to sell, the easier it is to kind of increase what we earn.
Ben:And I really like the, uh, the kind of invitation to kind of make intentional, make explicit at the beginning of a journey the importance of kind of testimonial and sort of seeding that with, with your client because, you know, as a kind of discipline kind of focus of kind of doing work well and, you know, the, then the practice of bringing this tool more sort of squarely into the work that we do.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:What hit home is really this idea, it's not necessarily just testimonials, but this philosophy around really being intentional about the change and uncovering what the change is.
Carlos:And that being the glue for that connects the end of the relationship to the beginning of the relationship and to even before the relationship is like, what is this, this unfolding narrative of transformation?
Carlos:Particularly for people in kind of the work that I do around coaching and, and also kind of leadership training.
Carlos:It's like there's, it's such an emergent process, but there's always a rich story for each person.
Carlos:And it sounds like if you can tell that story well succinctly, and include a clear transformation, and you invest time in doing that and maybe invest in some potentially a copywriter, I mean, cause like if I'm not a great storyteller, it's best to get someone who can tell the right, tell stories well.
Carlos:If you can do that, that has a longer lasting beneficial impact to your work.
Ian:Yes, no, absolutely.
Ian:I mean, in, in essence, a, a very sort of quick, uh, visual analogy.
Ian:Imagine a testimonial is not, when you look, look at yourself in the mirror and think, I look good.
Ian:It's when your customer looks in the mirror of your testimonial and can see the transformation they want to make.
Carlos:Nice.
Ben:Lovely.
Carlos:Excellent.
Carlos:Well, thank you very much Ian, for your time and your knowledge, uh, and your experience really helpful.
Carlos:It's, uh, loads of ideas spark in my head and I've actually done a few calls based on what we talked about, Ian and I now need to go and write them up.
Carlos:That's the thing, like Ben was saying, like, oh, now I'm gonna do the work and actually do the writing, and do the storytelling, and then communicating 'em.
Carlos:So yeah, I'm excited to do that now.
Ian:the end of the day, I think, I mean, this is something obviously I do all the time, but it, it's always important that the customer has the final say, the sign off.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Ian:because sometimes we use.
Ian:Or make expressions or we're prone to take a slight liberty, maybe
Ben:Speak for yourself.
Carlos:And that's an interesting way of like, on one hand, our customers are busy.
Carlos:We don't want to bother them.
Carlos:They've given us their time and money, and now we want more of their time, potentially.
Carlos:And on the flip side is like how do we write these things in a way that still sealed, feels true, is not embellishing too much.
Carlos:But I think there's a net, it's a really interesting balance, telling a good story, as well as being true to the facts in inverted commas.
Ian:Absolutely.
Carlos:There's something there around, there's a narrative that was it, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story?
Ian:No, it absolutely has to be the truth.
Ian:Just an interesting side thing from these conversations is that it eliminates any buyer's remorse your client may have.
Ian:Because in actual, actual fact, what you're doing is you are helping them to relive the great experience of working with you.
Ian:That means they're more likely to come back.
Ian:They'll talk about it to others, so which leads to referrals.
Ian:So, uh, it's a lovely add-on if the conversation flows in the right way.
Carlos:I, and I, the way I think about this is, is all part of our human need for meaning making.
Carlos:And sometimes we are not able to connect all the dots on, on the journey, whether that's the transactional journey with the, in a, in a business relationship or just personal journey.
Carlos:And I've seen the more they're able to get help to make sense of that journey, the more we feel a sense of meaning behind it and, and well relating to business, that lack of bias, remorse because it's like, okay, now I know why I did this.
Carlos:Even if I didn't get to where I thought I was gonna get to, I've now got to where I needed to get to.
Carlos:Thank you everyone.
Carlos:I hope that was useful.
Carlos:Um, I hope you are enthused and empowered and encouraged to call up all your customers and find out their stories, why they worked with you, and to use them in a beneficial way to create some more ease in your business, and to help you price well.
Ben:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:So looking forward to using that to get more people on our pricing course.
Carlos:Take care.
Carlos:Have a great day.
Carlos:Thank you very much, Ian.
Carlos:Cheers, Ben.
Ben:Thank you.
