Episode 34
How to triple your income, lose it, and get it back again
Having clarity about what you want and being intentional about it can lead to opportunities you might not expect. But while it's important to focus on increasing income, it's vital to be mindful of how you spend it.
David Papa learned this when, despite earning more income than ever before, he stopped paying attention to his spending and avoided looking at his income directly in the face. As a result, he ended up almost back where he started before tripling his income.
David shares his story with Carlos, and reveals how he started getting back on track.
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Transcript
it's like negative seven Celsius and then we get sun in the day.
David:Um, my internal weather is, yeah, I feel, I feel sunny with like, uh, some shaky nerves.
Carlos:Oh, I hear the sound of distant rumbling thunder.
David:Let's hope it won't turn into rain shower.
Carlos:You know, one of the key things we want people to do is to work more powerfully with pricing.
Carlos:And why do you wanna work more powerfully with pricing?
Carlos:To get more money.
Carlos:And, and having some kind of goals and targets around money can be useful, and I found that useful for myself.
Carlos:But some of us find that challenging.
Carlos:And then even if you make more money, what do you do with it?
Carlos:And what you do with it, I think is a lot to do with your own beliefs and biases around money as well.
Carlos:So, maybe start us off there for people who don't know you, a little bit about where you are and what you do, and then you can start talking about the money confessional and, and where we go from there.
David:Uh, yeah, I'm in, I'm in Czech Republic.
David:I grew up mostly in the US.
David:And most of my work is in the corporate world.
David:I work with leaders, a whole host of things over the years.
David:I've been doing this since 2013.
David:And, uh, what I'm focusing on now is making meetings, presentations, and group communications the amazing moments of energizing, active connection and trust that they can be.
David:Because, those opportunities are wasted in most organizations, big and small.
David:That's a travesty in my mind.
David:I love meetings.
David:They're the one of the absolute best parts of work, uh, and they can be for everybody.
David:And also I'm working on helping people, uh, shed their emotional layers and, uh, get to their true self.
David:I do that with this work called The Unconditioning, which I'm still developing.
Carlos:So something in the startup world, kind of a phrase around if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist.
Carlos:And I think whether that's to do with social media performance of a app or money, there's this element of if you don't pay attention to it, you can't necessarily move the needle.
Carlos:And so there's a real focus that's required around that.
Carlos:Uh, and what I'm hearing is like, This feeling around money, uh, whether it's shame or where, whether it's fear of failure, can stop us from paying attention to it.
Carlos:Uh, and talking to you yesterday, there's an interesting story where you did pay attention to it and your mentor made you pay attention to it, and things shifted.
David:Yeah.
David:For some years I was kind of anti.
David:The, there is even, I'm even on a podcast with my mentor debating.
David:We, it's like goals versus no goals.
David:We have a little debate about it.
David:I feel like I won, but still the, uh, I, I was kind of, I was coasting, you know, and I, when I hit 40, really, it was, you know, classic, classic number of your own, you know, on your own life gets you to rethink things.
David:I hit 40.
David:I was like, you know what?
David:I wanna do things at a higher level.
David:There are some things I wanna accomplish actually.
David:You know, like I would love to create an amazing retreat center for people to do their emotional and spiritual work.
David:I would love to turn it into kinda like a small farm and live there.
David:It means I need to somehow find a property and create enough abundance to, to make this.
David:And you know, then there's the idea of starting a family and the idea of, uh, you know.
David:I've been at a certain level in my, in my money for a long time.
David:But with these, these ideas that I want to contribute to and, and the value that I feel like I bring, I could, I could be playing it at such higher level.
David:They, I, I see what other people do and I know I can be playing at a higher level.
David:So I actually, around my 40th birthday, sat down and was like, how would I turn those into, you know, kind of intentions or goals?
David:How would I actually envision this?
David:So I came up with some random numbers, you know, that I thought I could try to get to.
David:And, uh, but I think the best thing I did was I talked to my mentor.
David:One of my mentors about this particular thing, and I asked him specific numbers about what he makes, which I actually hadn't heard before.
David:I hadn't been brave enough to ask.
David:And he was asking me, well, what specific number do you make and have you been making?
David:And you know, so we shared all this.
David:And I was like, oh, I don't even wanna tell him.
David:And then he is like, well, from from where you are right now, I think this coming year, if you kind of did x y Z, you know, you could get to here.
David:And, uh, and it was, it was quite a big jump.
David:And I was like, all right.
David:Like, he thinks that's possible.
David:That's totally possible.
David:And now these goals became actually more exciting.
David:And the, I think what really powered me is I had a real reason for why I wanted the money.
David:You know, and before that point, I, I kind of just didn't have a reason.
David:Why do I really need it?
David:Why do I really want it?
David:I had a vague idea.
David:I could do more good in the world.
David:I had a vague idea.
David:I could maybe play somehow do things.
David:I enjoyed maybe more, but I was really enjoying myself, you know?
Carlos:What was it about before?
Carlos:What were you, you said you were coasting.
Carlos:Can you describe what that meant to you in terms of, why do you describe it as coasting and, and why were you coasting?
David:It was because the reason I worked for myself was cause I didn't want to be in a grind.
David:You know, I didn't wanna be in that endless hamster wheel.
David:You know, I wanted to have more time for my life, you know,.
David:So I was in a, I was in a place where for several years I was working like four hours a day, four days a week.
David:You know what I mean?
David:And I was like, I was doing enough to take care of myself and have some fun, you know?
David:And, um, there was, there were of course moments where during that time where I was like, Hmm, things are getting pretty low.
David:What's gonna happen next is, uh, am I going to get what's, where's the next thing coming?
David:Of course, just like any entrepreneur, you, you know, you have that, how's, how's this gonna actually happen?
David:But it always happened.
David:I always was able to take care of myself for years.
Carlos:It sounded quite intentional then, you know.
Carlos:You, you wanted that space, you wanted that freedom.
Carlos:You didn't want the pressure of the grind, and so you were happy to, to live in that more emergent money space It sounded like.
Carlos:It's like when it comes, it comes.
Carlos:I'm not gonna push it, but, you know, you had a belief that you'd work it out.
David:Yes.
David:There was that intentional.
David:This is, this is how I wanna spend my time.
David:But also there was also a fear there.
David:There was also a fear that was like, if I kind of step up and really decide to play a bigger game, I might fail.
David:And you know, and that was actually stopping me from really, that was also a factor that was kind of like, let me justify coasting, you know, cuz I was afraid to actually do more, uh, as well.
David:Uh, and, and so then when, so then when it was like, no, I wanna do more cuz have these great ideas that's, that really excite me.
David:I got, you know, and money will help with that.
David:Like, let's do more.
David:And that's when, you know, and that, and like the crossing 40, the pending my own pending debt made me, made me realize, made me want to, uh, you know, change it up a bit.
Carlos:There's nothing like a deadline to focus the mind.
Carlos:So, uh, before we go into the, the kind of like, uh, I would say the more of that journey of then becoming a bit more intentional.
Carlos:You, you mentioned, I'm curious about this.
Carlos:You mentioned that your mentor said you could just do x, y Z and you could achieve this goal.
Carlos:Are you able to ex express what those, the X, the Y, the Z was?
David:This is where the story gets a little weird.
David:But, uh, I will, it is also going to get embarrassing, everybody, promise you're gonna get to laugh at me soon.
David:But, uh, there weren't super specific tips.
David:He was just like, well, how do you, you know, how can you get there?
David:And I, I reaffirmed to him all the things I love to do.
David:You know, I reaffirmed him like, I love giving presentations to groups.
David:Like when I'm, when I'm in front of a group, that's when I'm at my absolute best, you know?
David:And I was, I honestly told him that, but I would love more opportunities to be in front of groups.
David:Now he runs the coaching company and an executive leadership development firm in the US.
David:And we've been doing work together for years.
David:So, him knowing that, he literally just, part of the, the increase in income that I experienced was literally him having in his mind more opportunities he could give me.
David:And he did.
David:And then I went to, I'm also part of a coaching company in Spain called TNM Coaching, really cool coaching company that work all over Europe.
David:And I, I also went to the founder of that, that coaching company, he's a mentor of mine.
David:And I, I told him the same thing.
David:You know, I'm trying to do this this year.
David:I'm tr I, I would love these types of opportunities, you know, and they came.
David:I mean, it was really a matter of like really clarifying what I want and asking and they came.
David:And then, this is one of the things that, that scares me a little bit because I also, um, I also had a hu huge project come into my circle because I got recommended as one of the people this company should look at for a huge project.
David:And I went through like a evaluation phase with the executives in this project.
David:Like, who are they gonna use for this project?
David:And it, and it was, it was really big and it, uh, it was my biggest project ever that, that also just showed up, you know.
David:In this, in this year where I actually set goals, I actually announced universe of my mentors what I wanna do.
David:And I actually believe it's possible.
David:All of a sudden a huge project shows up, you know, that I get recommended to.
David:And that's the weird part, you know?
David:And I got it.
David:And that's one of the things that, that the reason that scares me is because is that replicable?
David:Could I do that again?
David:I don't know.
David:Because I mean, from my perspective, I didn't even, I didn't chase that.
David:I didn't, you know, it just kind of like I got recommended, Hey, you guys should look at that.
David:So is that, is that replicable again, if I wanna, you know, so this is, uh, the, the shift was like, It was really all about how, what is my, what is my internal state around this?
David:How am I talking to people about this and how am I embracing opportunities around this?
David:You know, am I being real clear about what I want and saying yes and asking for those opportunities?
David:And that actually worked.
Carlos:So I quite like what you're talking about.
Carlos:Cause it, it's very much aligned to the kinds of things we talk about on our Vision 2020 program.
Carlos:This idea of really have, having clarity as to what is it you really want.
Carlos:Um, there's something here also, we're releasing a podcast soon around serendipity and this, uh.
Carlos:One of the things we were talking about, Mark, Steadman who's, who runs Podcode, he, he talked about looking at the chimneys, looking up.
Carlos:And this, when you look up and look around and what I'm hearing with intention, these, you will spot these things because you are asking for them.
Carlos:You're kind of like being much more clear about what you want.
Carlos:And so other people are more clear about how they can help you.
David:Yeah.
Carlos:So that's something I'm getting from this.
Carlos:And yeah, maybe it's woowoo or maybe it's just physics or, or probability.
Carlos:The more you ask, the more likely you'll get the thing you want.
Carlos:Um, it's, it's in, yeah, it's interesting to, to work that out.
David:Not only, I mean, I didn't change my marketing.
David:I didn't change how I chase people.
David:My income literally tripled in that year from between the, you know, between that, sitting down with my mentor around in the, toward the end of the, the year 2020, uh, when my cross 40 and then 2021, my income literally tripled, just from what I'm telling you.
David:So it was crazy.
David:It was crazy to me.
David:Now, you know, the, the, there's a story, the story takes a turn, ladies and gentlemen, very soon.
David:But I think another thing.
David:Another thing that really helped me, which is one of the reasons I wanna do the money, wanna do the money confession, I wanna talk more about numbers, is because when I heard my mentor's numbers, when I actually was brave enough to ask him, Hey, what are you making?
David:How does it work?
David:And he told me his numbers.
David:I was like, holy crap.
David:That's possible in the work you do?
David:Like I was it like, it like pulled.
David:To another level of like, holy, holy crap, that's, that's possible for someone.
David:I can maybe, I can maybe get close to that?
David:That would be crazy.
David:You know, so it, that it reconfigured me just talking about those numbers and, you know, I don't, and we talked about this as we were leading up to this call.
David:Like, I don't, I don't wanna get sucked into playing a numbers game only, I don't wanna play this.
David:I don't wanna be some myopically focused money game, you know?
David:That's not, it's gonna feel good to me.
David:It's not how I wanna run, run my life, but there's something really valuable in this experience I had of clarifying the goals, seeing the numbers, like all of a sudden shifted my energy and like things happened.
Carlos:There's another thing here.
Carlos:I think.
Carlos:So there's, uh, I'm curious about that whole, ah, the, that's possible.
Carlos:You know, someone telling you, oh, I make this, and I, I, I'm assuming because it was similar work, it was something that you think you could do as well, it was just a case of like, I could charge that amount.
Carlos:Also, I, I also get the feeling, and I've had this as well, so when someone says, oh, I earned this much, it's like, oh, I'm a bit of a failure cuz I'm not earning that much.
Carlos:And it's like, uh, and then it, rather than excite me, it kind of like, just makes me feel less energized and think, oh, I don't wanna play that game.
Carlos:And I justify it.
Carlos:Oh, I don't want, I don't need more money, so I'm not gonna do that.
David:Yeah.
David:I totally, people deal with that.
David:I mean, totally experienced that.
David:I think that's one of the reasons I never actually just asked my mentor before, what are you, what are you making?
David:But once, once I found my why for money, you know, it was like, no, I wanna learn how this works.
David:Cuz this retreat center idea is just so compelling to me.
David:You know, and where I wanna go next and how, what I wanna offer people and the space I wanna create for people.
David:It's just so compelling for me.
David:Like, money is gonna help me do that.
David:I want to learn this.
David:So mentor, please, what are you making?
David:How did it work?
David:You know what I mean?
David:I finally asked him, and instead of, instead of feeling like.
David:Oh my God, I'm a miserable failure, like, this is incredible.
David:He makes so much more, you know, I felt like I, I just felt the possibility of it.
David:I, of course, I look around, I see other people doing stuff, you know, creating all kinds of content, you know, getting all people signed up to their programs and I'm like, oh man, could I even do that?
David:Like, do I wanna do that?
David:You know, like, there's so much better at that than I am.
David:But you know, like, I'm shedding that more and more and I'm realizing that everybody has their own own way.
David:I'm trying to find David.
David:You know, and I want everybody to find their way.
David:You know, I'm, I'm trying to find David Papa's way to enjoyably, happily, energetically, excitedly, and embracing all the discomfort along the way, find my way to unfold, you know, and so comparison doesn't help me with that.
Carlos:No, it's, it's, it's, yeah, I definitely with you that, and trying to.
Carlos:I think there's an interesting thing around, like you said, talking to your mentor, having someone tell you what they're making and that opening this, either this, this window of possibility saying, oh yeah, that's possible for me.
Carlos:And then trying not to, I think this links to this whole thing about goals and targets, trying not to.
Carlos:Suddenly that becomes the benchmark of your Happiness.
Carlos:If you don't achieve that goal, you are not worthy or you're not of no value.
Carlos:So that's, that's the curious thing there.
David:Well then I got kind of crazy.
David:Uh, all of a sudden all these expenses started coming.
David:And I needed them, you know, and like we needed a car.
David:Okay.
David:Fair enough.
David:and then I needed to upgrade all my electronics.
David:Fair enough.
David:And then I, all of a sudden, a lot of other ideas started to come of what I needed.
David:And you know, I'm feeling super enclosed in lockdown.
David:So my, my partner and I were like, we gotta get outta here.
David:Let's take a long holiday somewhere where they're less lockdown.
David:So we, we went on a big trip.
David:The biggest trip I ever did for myself, uh, we did last year.
David:And while we were there, you know, I was like, you know what?
David:I think I'm spending a lot of money, but I, something happened where I was afraid to look at it.
David:I was like, didn't want to keep track of it for some reason, I, I was just frozen.
David:And so yes, this, this money was there, it was coming in and it was going out.
David:You know, it was going out a lot.
David:And I was enjoying myself.
David:I mean, I don't, you know, I'm not gonna say I regret that holiday.
David:I spent, like, I spent nine weeks in Costa Rica.
David:You know what I mean?
David:It like totally, I learned so much about myself and nature and, you know, uh, spent time on the finally f actually in years, I actually let myself relax, completely for a period of time.
David:You know, and that was complete, very rejuvenating.
David:I needed it, but at the same time, like.
David:I was not watching how we were spending money while we were there at all.
David:And I got back and I was like, oh, oh man, that's lower than I thought.
David:Okay, lemme calculate taxes.
David:Let me see how many taxes I'm gonna pay.
David:Turns out I misestimated my taxes by half.
David:I ended up double.
David:So I was frozen around the numbers.
David:As I was making more money, I wasn't looking at them.
David:I wasn't, I wasn't being a steward of what was coming in, you know?
David:Back in, back of my mind, I was like, Hey, uh, all this money chopping down, you know, you, you wanted to have a down payment for a retreat center.
David:Like you're chopping away at that.
David:What's, what's happening?
David:But I, I couldn't, I couldn't somehow bring myself to look at it directly in the face.
David:Something was, it was still some big trigger inside of me, some big discomfort inside of me.
David:And then, come to the end of the year, now we're in a new year, just did all my tax stuff, you know, just resetting for the new year, it turns out that I'm almost back where I started before I tripled my income.
Carlos:Hmm.
David:And the failure in that, I mean, talk about comparing yourself to others?
David:I mean, I was, I felt like the, in the beginning of this year, I felt like a, an absolute irresponsible failure.
David:Like, how could I not have saved more from last year?
David:What if I never have a year like that again?
David:What, what an idiot I am.
David:Like I was my so judging myself so hard, feeling so crappy.
David:And um, yeah, that's the like kind of shameful part that even now as I feel it, I feel a little bit shaky sharing that because I feel like, oh my God, I was like, what did I do?
David:And so now what I think happened is that, through my mentor's help, through a big energy shift, through being more clear, I was able to increase the amount of money coming in.
David:But what I did not increase is my energetic capacity to hold it.
David:What I didn't increase is my own internal relationship with a bigger number, with a higher level.
David:And because I didn't do that, I ended up losing it.
David:I was scared to lose it.
David:I ended up letting it happen because I wasn't, didn't look directly at that part of me that was uncomfortable with the bigger number.
Carlos:So there's this thing around, it sounds like you've, well, on one hand I know, well, from my perspective listening to your story, I wouldn't, my, my first word would not be failure.
Carlos:Um, it'd be like, wow, you had, you had an amazing year and you did some amazing stuff, and you got some stuff you wanted.
Carlos:But it wasn't necessarily a stuff that you had decided that you wanted to get in the first place.
Carlos:Have you thought about why you didn't, other than not wanting to look at the money, but there's also the reason you wanna look at the money is cuz you wanted the retreat center.
Carlos:Is it that you didn't want it or was there something else about that that seemed to influence your thinking or actions?
David:No, in fact, part, part of the failure feeling is like I didn't save enough to have that down payment on the retreat.
David:What have I done?
David:You know what I mean?
David:Like, what have I done?
David:It's, it's like, was that kind of experience.
David:And I got just caught up in this, like, money's coming in, there are these big numbers.
David:I'm not gonna look at it carefully.
David:I was just scared to look at it more carefully.
David:I was just frozen around it somehow.
David:The bigger money was coming in.
David:I was frozen around it.
David:And I think because I, I just wasn't ready to really accept like, Hey, this is potential new normal for me.
David:This is how I want to actually use, use it in my life.
David:This is how I wanna manage it and run it.
David:You know, I didn't sit down and like, decide all that because I think a part of me was like, this isn't normal.
David:We don't know what to do with this.
David:This is scary and still shame around it.
David:And, you know, so I, I like, I froze and it just kick started going out and it just kept going out.
Carlos:So the curiosity for me is like, it sounded like you really did know what you wanted it for because the retreat center was, was the thing that, the thing that was driving you in a sense, or, you know, in the house and.
Carlos:And so, and then you talk about the shame around the numbers.
Carlos:How, how can you marry those two things up?
Carlos:Was there any fear about stepping into and committing to a retreat center, or was it purely just I don't like looking at numbers?
David:Yeah, that's a good question.
David:I, cause I still really want the, I still, the retreat return is still a very real goal and it's still really, I mean, it's still in my heart.
David:I'm, I'm still working for it, you know.
David:But during 2021, for some reason I just couldn't think clearly.
David:Now, here's the thing.
David:I'm not sure I did anything wrong.
David:Like, my feeling of failure is just a, is a trigger.
David:Like maybe nothing bad happened, it's just my own discomfort.
David:You know?
David:Maybe, maybe getting, buying the things I bought, taking the trip I took was exactly actually what I needed to set me up for the next phase of my life.
David:Like, I can't say that actually I did anything wrong, you know?
David:But what I can say is that I was not intentional.
David:I thought I would end up the year with more than I did.
David:There was a disconnect between what I was actually doing, what I actually thought was happening with the money, and what actually happened with the money.
David:So there was some gap between my ability, in my ability to actually absorb and manage and steward it.
David:You know, so that's my, that's my goal for this year is like, okay, I wanna talk about money more to people.
David:I wanna share this story more.
David:I want to talk numbers more with people to get inspired again.
David:And, and I want to, I have like a challenge now.
David:Can I even replicate what happened last year?
David:And as I, if I replicate it, how do I be a, be a bigger space for it so that I am more intentional.
David:And at the end of the year I'm like, Yes, this.
David:That's what I want to it to happen, you know.
David:Because it just didn't, that just didn't happen.
David:And as I said, I don't know if it was wrong, you know, I, I mean, I'm kind of part of the woohoo crowd that believes, you know, there's no mistakes really, you know?
David:But, but at the same time, what my mind thought was happening, what I wanted to experience did not happen, and I didn't experience.
Carlos:So with this year, and the question that springs to mind is, is it purely skills that you are needing to, I'm, I'm thinking of this graphic equalizer.
Carlos:There's like, I need to have like more skills so that I can have the right processes and planning and tracking around the money so I can keep on top of it.
Carlos:And then there's the mindset of like, actually even having the intention or the, the courage for one of a better term to look at the numbers.
Carlos:Do you feel it's one more than the other?
Carlos:Is it the same?
Carlos:How would, how does it feel for you?
David:Yeah, I think, I think it's, uh, I think it's both, you know, it's both.
David:Um, it's uh, it's actually money skills, which unfortunately we are not talk growing up.
David:And there's so many, once you start reading about like money skills of people, like people who know how to work money, there's all this weird stuff about how money works, you know, how it's created through debt, how the, how the economy works.
David:And you're like, really?
David:This is crazy.
David:So like, yes, those skills, like understanding that better, and then also, yes, being much more like, like clear and replicating that kind of clarity and numbers discussion that happened with my mentor.
David:Doing that with more people, I think I have just excitement for.
David:That's why I want to have this money confessional meeting.
David:Cause I was like, let's get the numbers out there.
David:Let's demystify de shame.
David:You know, let's break down these barriers around.
David:Just talking very directly about what is my present situation and what do I feel about it?
David:You know, let's just, let's just stop hiding from that like I was.
Carlos:Which can be painful to talk about for the first time.
Carlos:And yeah, I can find it.
Carlos:I can imagine it'd be very difficult for some.
Carlos:Particularly when you start see hearing other people's numbers.
Carlos:Or on one hand it could be amazingly liberating, which sounded like it was for you, or like just energizing.
Carlos:And for others it might be like, oh no, I feel even more of a failure.
Carlos:There's something it reminds me about and I, you know, I'm, I'm curious about what you're gonna be doing with this and whether it becomes a regular practice, cuz it reminds me of something we do in kung fu martial arts called conditioning.
Carlos:Conditioning is, we do this thing called knocking limbs, which is essentially, we hit each other's arms against each other's arms continuously.
Carlos:And it's painful.
Carlos:And it hurts.
Carlos:Exactly.
Carlos:But the, the principle being is like you then get used to the pain, so that when you are sparring or you are fighting, you're not flinching anymore.
Carlos:And so I, I made this connection.
Carlos:Like, the more we talk about these painful things, these difficult things, it isn't like the pain will go away, we just know how to deal with it without flinching as much.
David:And it does get less and less and less.
David:You know, the more you talk about like, shame lives in the dark, you know, shame lives in, like where you don't shine a light on it.
David:But also I think that a liberating part of directly looking at the numbers is becau your pain around the numbers is, is because you think the numbers are you.
David:You think the numbers is a ref re a reflection of you and who you are as a person and your value in this world.
David:And you know, we tie so much, so much meaning to these money numbers, and they don't mean any of that, you know?
David:So when we can just share numbers and be like, oh, that's so much you made here so much.
David:I made, wow, that's a big difference.
David:And kind of be light about it and kind of explore like, okay, how can I change my numbers?
David:What would that feel like?
David:You know, make it, make it less, less heavy and meaningful and less like, oh, this is who I am and this is, this means my successor failure.
David:No, it doesn't.
David:It doesn't mean that you know at all.
David:It's just a number.
David:In a weird world where numbers are just created.
David:I mean, you know, do you know how banks create value?
David:It's insane.
David:Go look at it.
David:They just create, they just create numbers.
David:You know?
David:It's, it's so detrimental when we have so much he heaviness and weight and meaning energy tied up in the numbers.
David:So actually part of my goal of directly looking at them and talking about them more is to crack that and shed that and be like, they're just numbers and we can play a totally different number game.
David:And like, let's use that to our advantage.
Carlos:So one of the things that I love about numbers, or I loved about numbers coming from like a science background, there's an, there was an objectivity that I thought there was, you know, and so there was a language that you could use with others.
Carlos:One is a one, A two is a two.
Carlos:You double a, two becomes a four.
Carlos:There's no argument about that.
Carlos:But then when you start tying these numbers, these metrics, whether it's to do with money or to do with social media impact, or to do with anything that you're trying to measure to kind of justify the work or the return of investment, and then that suddenly being a reflection of your own internal value is that this is sounds like what, you know, whether there's money or other things that we do in life when we try to, to hook onto something that makes us feel okay, I'm, I'm valuable to the world.
Carlos:It feels like, uh, this process is, is unhooking that where we are fully content where we are and we can choose to play the money game, to play the impact game, to play the influencer game without it affecting us internally.
David:Well, it might always affect us internally.
David:There might always be discomfort there, but I really liked your, I really liked this idea of unhooking.
David:You know this word unhooking that you said, because Yeah, we're so hooked by what these numbers mean for us in our business, you know, and they're, we're so hooked by we, how we think money works and how we, what we, how much we think we deserve, and all these things.
David:So we gotta un, we gotta unhook from all that because it's a game.
David:It's a big game.
David:You know that we can learn to play differently in a way that excites us.
David:You can find your, your, the why you want more money, a real why that excites you.
David:You can talk to people like I did who, you know, making more and you're like, oh my God, that's possible?
David:And how do I do that in, in a way that actually matches me my way?
David:You know, and open, open up to that and it becomes, Becomes a game that can enliven you a game that's fun to play, you know?
David:And you'll, and you'll notice, just like me, you know, you'll, you'll have like a, oh this is fun.
David:And then, oh shit, it got scary again.
David:Uh, but then, you know, you see, okay, that's another layer of my money discomfort.
David:Let me just absorb that and open to that and share that.
David:And you know what?
David:Now I'm gonna even be able to play a better game, you know?
David:But this comfort is not a problem.
David:You know, this comfort isn't, isn't like, doesn't mean there's a problem there.
David:This comfort is just normal human bodies trying to figure out these crazy aspects of our society.
Carlos:One thing that, um, spr to mind before when you're talking about this, um, was this question of can I replicate this this year?
David:Yeah.
Carlos:And I think one of the strong messages, which can be really difficult for people is this either the other scalable replicable business model.
Carlos:This thing of, if it isn't replicable, then you've failed.
Carlos:And so, I'm wondering how we are able to create these goals and targets each year, but still be able to navigate the fact that we can't necessarily replicate every single year.
David:Yeah.
David:I think what you're touching on is this idea of like, having goals but not becoming addicted to them, not using them as the the end in of, of itself.
David:You know, the goals are not actually the end.
David:There's, you know, the reason we set goals is because there's some bigger end.
David:We have, we wanna feel more free, we wanna feel more love, we wanna be happier, you know, so let's keep the real end in mind.
David:And these, these goals are what we think are our next best steps in the physical world to kind of get us excited about moving in a certain direction.
David:You know, so let's use them, let's use them for that.
David:But if we don't replicate them exactly, the question I would still pose is, well, did you allow yourself to be happy along the way?
David:Or as to the best of your ability, did you allow yourself to follow your joy and excitement and self-expression along the way to the best of your ability?
David:Because if you sacrificed that for your goal and needing to attain the certain goal, then you're defeating the purpose of goals.
David:It's not what they're for.
David:You know, you can hit all these goals, all these number goals your whole life, and if you never did it in a way that was joyful to you, like you've missed out the entire thing,
Carlos:What made me think there was there's this, this tangible game of, okay, very clear.
Carlos:I need, if I'm gonna get a retreat center, I need say a hundred thousand euros to kick it off.
Carlos:And so I need to make this much money each year for the next three years, and then I'll be able to start the retreat center.
Carlos:And so that's a very clear, simple, tangible guide.
Carlos:So, that's how I'm going to work or that's what's gonna focus me in terms of sales and pricing and looking for work.
Carlos:And I'm always wanting this retreat center.
Carlos:Maybe over those next three years, I meet someone who says, I got this space and I want it to be a retreat center, and can you help me?
Carlos:And, and so there's this, rather than just being fixated on a single path, always looking up and saying, actually maybe there's an easier, quicker way that doesn't need.
Carlos:In order to, for me to achieve what the feeling or the impact I wanna
David:That's a great point.
David:You know, in the woowoo land we talk about how if you get too fixated on a specific vision, you're stopping life from showing you something even better.
David:That that might be even a bigger vision in your heart that you're not even letting yourself really see, and life life might help that show up for you if you stay open exactly as you talk about to lots of different opportunities, you know, and there are lots of forms of abundance, not just, you know, money's just one.
David:As you say, you know, the people around you provide all kinds of channels of, of opportunity and money is just one.
David:So yeah, we don't want to get too fixated on it, but at the same time, can we play it in a way that is in, that frees us and enlivens us?
David:Thanks for all your chats, everybody, by the way.
David:Thanks Marianne, for saying you resonated with my story and yeah, some people saying the numbers are bringing out hives and yeah, frances is also saying like, you know, how transparent can we be?
David:It sounds like.
David:You know, with partners, parents, children, and do you create trauma by like kind of sharing your worries about money?
David:Maybe she's talking about, I don't know.
David:I don't know the answer to that question, but the money confessional is kind of experiment in that, you know, if we talk more directly about our worries about money and our numbers, and we actually share that more transparently, does it, does it help?
David:You know?
Carlos:Yeah.
David:Uh, and I, I'm a big believer.
David:Full transparency.
David:I mean, I talked to my partner about all my money stuff, you know, I, I talked to my parents about my money stuff, you know, uh, that was also a leap for me because I was also had super, for some reason super shamed to talk to them about money stuff.
David:And obviously I'm sharing this here with more people like my up and down and, and want to talk more about that.
David:So I, I think that the trans, the, you know, the dysfunction lives in the dark.
David:That's what one of my, you know, my mentor says as well.
David:Like, it's like fungus, you know, it grows where the light doesn't go, you know, so you gotta, you gotta turn and look at it, look, shine the light there, what's really there?
David:How do we really feel about that?
David:You know?
David:And then the dysfunction starts to fade and the, the shame starts to fade.
David:And new, new options are possible.
Carlos:I think there's a, there's a strength that you can get from being able to just talk freely about these things.
Carlos:And I also, you know, this is one of my concerns maybe is too strong a word, but I think I'm very conscious of is the need for safety, particularly if, um, you are at a stage, Oh, when, when you are dealing with, with not just your own, your own numbers, but numbers of family members and, and, and, you know, even just with myself and my wife, just, you know, being able to say, this is how much we earn is like, that's, it's for me to say what I earn is it for me to say what we earn as a family, but without saying that, that's, that doesn't give the whole picture.
Carlos:So there's an element here of finding a level of confidentiality as well, I think, when it comes down to very discreet numbers because of how that might feel when you're talking about these things.
David:Yeah.
David:If that creates a container for you, that helps you at least look at it directly and talk about it, I think that's super helpful.
David:You know, I mean, when I think about like, do I have a soul?
David:My answer's yes, you know, does my soul care about my money number?
David:My answer is no.
David:You know what I mean?
David:So like my higher self doesn't give a crap how much money I make, what the actual number is, you know?
David:But so why am I so worried about it?
David:Is because my human self believes it, my money number is, makes a difference to as who I am as a person.
David:My human self has believed that my money number, well, I can't, I can't share it because it means I'm a success or failure.
David:No, it doesn't.
David:You know, it means, it means I'm good or not.
David:No, it doesn't.
David:It means I'm smart or not.
David:No, it doesn't.
David:Like from, from a, the higher self perspective, you know, I mean, who knows what that really is, but what it seems to me, it's like, oh my God, it's just a meaningless number in like this human world that you constructed.
David:You know, you can, you made up this whole thing called money and now you're worried about what these numbers mean.
David:That has nothing to do.
David:Like from, from like universal perspective, it doesn't give a crap about it.
David:You know?
David:We've put all these extra layers on it.
David:So we don't feel safe with money numbers because of our own mind's interpretation of money and what our own mind has decided money means for who we are as people.
David:It's not because of any truth about money,
Carlos:No, I agree.
Carlos:And I think at a fundamental level, it's, it's very true what you're talking about.
Carlos:And then there's also how we do this as a collective of people who are at different stages of their relationship with money.
David:Yeah.
Carlos:Where it doesn't cause conflict or her, or pain because there's some, someone isn't quite there.
David:Yes.
Carlos:And that's, that's the interesting bit for me, how, uh, how we navigate that.
David:Well, okay.
David:I guess you're, I guess I shouldn't post with people saying the money confessional online.
David:I won't, I won't do that.
David:I'll keep it, I'll keep it confidential until we all decide we wanna post it.
David:Okay.
Carlos:Exactly.
Carlos:Um, but I'm very curious about this and I, and I, I, I think there's some very useful liberating work that can happen by being able to face some of these, numbers that we feel, whatever emotion around.
Carlos:So I'm, I'm looking forward to hearing how that goes.
Carlos:Thank you very much David for sharing your story and it feels like it's connected with a number of people here and helped them think a bit differently.
Carlos:I hope about money.
David:Well, thanks so much for asking and opportunity to talk about it.
David:Helps me too, to just shed some of my own layers just to share it, you know, uh, the, cuz there's still discomfort there.
David:So thank you everybody for listening and If you have any ideas, uh, that come for you from this, any inspirations, definitely let me know cause we're all in this together.
Carlos:And, uh, David loves to help people run better meetings and create space for unfolding and emergence and better leadership.
Carlos:So if you know anyone who needs help with that, David, where can we point them to?
David:Oh, thank you.
David:You can contact me on my website, davidpapa.live.
Carlos:Excellent.
Carlos:Thank you very much again.
Carlos:Thank you everyone for listening live.
