Find Your Ideal Client by Telling Your Story

Frances: 00:00:00

You know, those Buddhist monks who live on the kindness of community.

Frances: 00:00:05

So they live on Dharma, Sanger, and anyone else?

Frances: 00:00:09

Someone here help me please.

Carlos: 00:00:10

Pilau rice?

Frances: 00:00:11

No.

Carlos: 00:00:17

For anyone who's new to the Happy Pricing podcast, uh, this is a little project that myself and Ben Johnson kicked off a couple of years ago now.

Carlos: 00:00:27

Uh, Ben Johnson was on our Vision 2020 program as well as Frances.

Carlos: 00:00:30

She's been, um, she was in tribe four.

Carlos: 00:00:32

And he had a wealth of experience in, in kind of running agency work, and also he runs a thing called Buddhist in the Board.

Carlos: 00:00:41

Well, he has a, this kind of idea of Buddha in the boardroom and, and relating maybe to what, um, Frances was talking about, thinking a bit more deeply about the work as opposed to just the money.

Carlos: 00:00:54

But he had also a lot of experience in working with money and pricing.

Carlos: 00:00:58

Um, and so we wanted to see how we could, uh, harness that experience and knowledge for the benefit of people within our Happy Startup community.

Carlos: 00:01:07

But, uh, also anyone who believes in the stuff that we believe in, which is essentially how do we make our business is, uh, a manifestation of us in terms of the things we want to create in the world, the, the things that nourish us, but also are energetically sustainable and financially sustainable, and within a system that values money and, uh, with people who still have their own kind of stories around money.

Carlos: 00:01:31

So we're going to, that's giving you hopefully a bit of background as to why this podcast exists.

Carlos: 00:01:37

Ben, this week is on holiday.

Carlos: 00:01:39

Um, and so rather than go fly solo and try and ramble on my own, Frances has joined us a couple of times on the Happy Pricing podcast, ann is the co-founder of the Better Bolder Braver community.

Carlos: 00:01:50

She works with coaches to help them feel more confident about marketing, um, but they work not only on tactics and strategies.

Carlos: 00:01:56

They work also under kind of the felt and lived experience of marketing so that it feels much more powerful and authentic.

Carlos: 00:02:03

And that's why, um, I thought it would be a great to have her on the podcast to talk about this whole thing called storytelling, uh, particularly in the context of selling because it's something that I know that she does well and she also helps a lot of people do.

Carlos: 00:02:16

Um, but to do it authentically I think is one of the key things to do it in a way that doesn't feel slimy or, or false.

Carlos: 00:02:22

Um, and also how it Connects to all the other things that we have to do with work.

Carlos: 00:02:28

One aspect, the thing I've learned about marketing is there's, it isn't just about trying to sell stuff, there's so much more to it.

Carlos: 00:02:35

And there's, and, and there's different ways to do it.

Carlos: 00:02:37

It isn't just about ads and posting stuff on Instagram.

Carlos: 00:02:41

There's, there's, there's essentially, there's much more nuance around marketing and there's all many ways to do it.

Carlos: 00:02:47

Um, but the storytelling pit was, was really, I'm really curious about, because there's also, it's one of the things that you, there's a core element of your, um, one of your programs, the C M J, the Coach's marketing journey.

Carlos: 00:02:59

And so, um, maybe talk a little bit about that and then we can start connecting it to this whole idea of storytelling and selling.

Frances: 00:03:05

Yeah, sure.

Frances: 00:03:06

I would actually say that marketing is storytelling.

Frances: 00:03:08

Words like tactics, tricks, and tips coming before words like storytelling mirror, experience, values, needs.

Frances: 00:03:18

Those words for me, actually come way before anything to do with strategy, funny enough, when it comes to marketing, and I guess the value of our community is that we have someone, my co-founder, Simon, who is all about, uh, making it super clear for people to know exactly what they should be doing from a kind of strategic point of view, logistical, um, uh, just sort of very what to do now, literal, uh, perspective technical, and I very much kind of fly the flag of the feelings stuff.

Frances: 00:03:51

So the C M J starts with a chapter called Mindset, um, which is an overused word, especially in the coaching community.

Frances: 00:03:59

But we really want people to.

Frances: 00:04:02

Um, particularly those who think they've done the whole mindset piece of work think about what their needs are, what their values are, and why they're doing what they're doing.

Frances: 00:04:10

Uh, it feeds into storytelling very quickly because you need to be able to tell a story to yourself as well as to what, as you're doing what you're doing, and remind yourself of that story regularly.

Frances: 00:04:20

Remind yourself of where you are coming from, how you are the guide and not the hero of the story, and, uh, that you're showing people the way, but you're not that far.

Frances: 00:04:30

Ahead on the journey that you lose sight of your own experience.

Frances: 00:04:35

We help people to build businesses that are nourishing and sustainable for them, and we remind them that without the context of their own story, they may well forget what it is that's important to them and burnout and if they spend so much time selling to the wrong people and underpricing their services and not thinking about their work life balance and their work work balance, they may well burn out and they're not going to be any use to anyone, particularly themselves.

Frances: 00:05:04

And so the second chapter is client.

Frances: 00:05:06

And we help people to think about who their ideal client is, not just because niching makes sense in terms of focus and targeted marketing, but also because if you do not work with the person who is best suited to you and your needs, your capacity, your values, somebody that's not going to trigger you, somebody who's with whom you can work and it feels like flow, then again, you're gonna burn out.

Frances: 00:05:30

And the other things that we focus on in, in the C M J are product and content and story and journey.

Frances: 00:05:39

We divide marketing into a set of stories if you like.

Frances: 00:05:44

Uh, you know, your product building in itself is a story and, and the products that you want to offer.

Frances: 00:05:50

People should take people on a journey.

Frances: 00:05:51

There should be a story of why they would want to engage with you.

Frances: 00:05:56

Let's take your community, Carlos, as an example.

Frances: 00:05:59

You have a number of products if you like.

Frances: 00:06:01

You have summer camp, you have happy pricing, you have Vision 2020, uh, altitude.

Frances: 00:06:07

I'm basically listing all the things that I've done because I am a happy Startup super fan.

Frances: 00:06:12

Now the journey that I go on, the story of my experience with Happy Startup School is.

Frances: 00:06:19

Punctuated by the products that you offer because what you have done is worked out what I need, um, at a point in my journey so that you meet me where I am.

Frances: 00:06:31

And that is the point of, uh, being able to tell a story when you have, uh, a number of products so that you can have someone understand that the product speaks to them at that point in their story.

Carlos: 00:06:43

Um, for those of you who, who might not link the idea of storytelling to selling or just trying to work out what that could mean, the way I think about it is, rather than when you sell, just selling based on features, uh, and immediate benefits, uh, I, I dunno.

Carlos: 00:07:03

You can cut your carrots quicker or, uh, it's got a really sharp blade, or we have, we do a 20 week program and you get to, uh, have an hour a week with a coat, a buddy group, and you'll be guided by a facilitator, you know, talking very much on, on the what and the how.

Carlos: 00:07:22

For me, the, the purpose of the storytelling is to think about the, the whole arc or the journey of the person that you are serving.

Carlos: 00:07:30

And like Frances was saying, she was talking about being the guide and not the hero.

Carlos: 00:07:34

And I think about Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey.

Carlos: 00:07:37

But without getting too deep into the whole deconstructing that this whole idea of thinking of this a journey, um, and you talked about the Coach's Marketing Journey, there's something helpful and useful about a beginning, a middle, a struggle, overcoming a struggle, and an end.

Carlos: 00:07:56

And to be able to help your customers tell the story of their journey.

Carlos: 00:08:02

But also before that, telling the story of your journey, being able to articulate that, to be able to even just consider that.

Carlos: 00:08:08

And I think a lot of people, when they start a business, they don't even think about to thinking about their journey, straightaway.

Carlos: 00:08:14

Thinking about the customer, how much they're gonna pay them, what it is they want.

Carlos: 00:08:18

All the stuff that makes sense in terms of business, but doesn't necessarily help you connect.

Carlos: 00:08:25

At a level of building trust.

Carlos: 00:08:28

And I think this being able to understand your own narrative in terms of the why of your work and, and to do that, 'cause it can get difficult and you could spin out trying to work out what's, how do I even think about that?

Carlos: 00:08:41

Using a narrative framework, a simple structure of a story to at least start that, that way of being able to articulate yourself and then to use that same framework for your customer.

Carlos: 00:08:52

And then, Like you're saying, Frances, knowing where they're at, being able to say, because you are here on your journey, then we recommend you do this with us because it makes sense on getting you further.

Frances: 00:09:06

Just on that last point, you have, um, hit the nail on the head because this is about having people be seen and heard and understood, and that relates to both.

Frances: 00:09:17

A question that Emma has posted and also a comment that Neil has posted in the chat.

Frances: 00:09:23

So just read those out for anyone listening,

Frances: 00:09:25

Emma asks, how do you tell the story of what you offer when you're doing something new and don't have much evidence of outcomes yet?

Frances: 00:09:34

And Neil says, I want to use storytelling to sell.

Frances: 00:09:38

How would you do this with a very technical product like WordPress maintenance, especially a product that clients don't often understand?

Frances: 00:09:46

So let's try and address those comments and questions, uh, together.

Frances: 00:09:53

Emma's in the Better Bold Rover community, and so she will be familiar.

Frances: 00:10:00

With something that Neil may not be aware of, which is something Simon and I talk about a lot, which is called the journey of Consciousness.

Frances: 00:10:08

And by that we mean different levels of awareness that your ideal client might be on when they interact with you, when you interact with them, when you meet them.

Frances: 00:10:18

So if a client does not yet know that they might need your help, then we describe that as being problem unaware.

Frances: 00:10:30

And they move through problem unaware to problem aware, solution aware, product aware, most aware.

Frances: 00:10:40

So they will start at a point where they do not know that what they need is you and your service, and we need to be able to meet them where they are and show them that we understand, see them and hear them.

Frances: 00:10:53

And so we build our marketing to interact with them as such.

Frances: 00:10:58

We may not have a lot of, uh, footprint as it were that might show an evidence of an outcome.

Frances: 00:11:05

And the other thing is that we might work in a very emergent way, so much that we don't want to promise any particular tangible outcome.

Frances: 00:11:13

And that's absolutely fine.

Frances: 00:11:15

So to speak to Emma's point, the story that we are telling is around aligned values, and again, about having people feel seen, heard, and understood.

Frances: 00:11:27

And the story of what you offer resonates with somebody according to where they are on, on the journey of consciousness, um, and how you describe your method, uh, of working or the product that you are selling will resonate with them, um, according to wherever they are.

Frances: 00:11:44

And it might be that they don't actually need to see evidence of an outcome enough to feel compelled to work with you.

Frances: 00:11:53

And that's why the storytelling is so useful because rather than have to sell a product to guarantee a particular outcome.

Frances: 00:12:02

You are telling a story about why the product makes so much sense according to somebody's needs, values, where they are and what they might feel when they get to wherever it is that they think might be better.

Carlos: 00:12:16

Hmm.

Frances: 00:12:16

It's a good story doesn't necessarily in any way.

Frances: 00:12:19

In fact, the best stories are the ones where you have no idea what the ending might be.

Carlos: 00:12:23

Yeah, no, I think the two things I wanted to pick up on there.

Carlos: 00:12:26

Well, the last point I think is the, for me, a really useful bit is how do you want people to feel?

Carlos: 00:12:31

I.

Carlos: 00:12:32

Um, uh, I, for me, a key part of this question for Emma is this kind of, how do I prove people that this is gonna work?

Carlos: 00:12:38

How do I prove to people that it's worth taking this journey?

Carlos: 00:12:41

Because it's one of the things that we talk about on Happy Pricing and the idea of selling is trying to remove levels of uncertainty.

Carlos: 00:12:49

And I think when people are uncertain or unsure about a purchase or any kind of decision, when we're unsure, the easiest thing is not to make a decision, which is a decision itself, but you just, you know, you, you push the can kick the can down the road.

Carlos: 00:13:02

And so, there's two things that spring to mind for someone like Emma where it's such a new product that you don't necessarily have an idea of, or like proof of outcome.

Carlos: 00:13:13

I think that thing is like, prove to me that you'll get to get me to this place.

Carlos: 00:13:16

And for you, maybe Emma, there's a feeling of love, like, oh, how can I sell this when I can't definitely guarantee?

Carlos: 00:13:21

And how can I charge this much when I can't guarantee this outcome?

Carlos: 00:13:24

And what is the outcome?

Carlos: 00:13:25

You know, it's, it's an open book.

Carlos: 00:13:27

I relate this to two things.

Carlos: 00:13:29

One is our earth first.

Carlos: 00:13:31

When we started the Happy Startup School, um, we weren't sure what it was we were offering.

Carlos: 00:13:36

We were very clear about what it, why it was we were doing what we're doing, and the thing, the ways we wanted, we wanted to feel, and the ways we wanted our customers, our customers, our community, the people who wanted to, who followed us, wanted to feel.

Carlos: 00:13:50

And it was really kind of hooking into that and trying to tell the story of that journey of, you feel like this and you wanna feel like that, how can we do this?

Carlos: 00:13:59

And that leads on for me to this other thing that I've heard from David Hieatt, the founder of the Do Lectures, idea of a mission question.

Carlos: 00:14:06

It is like I am here to this answer, this question.

Carlos: 00:14:10

This question is around you're feeling like this, you wanna feel like that?

Carlos: 00:14:15

And I feel I can answer this question in this way.

Carlos: 00:14:18

And particularly at the beginning, I think this is essentially you are like, Frances, I think was saying like you are writing the book the story as you go along, which also means there's an opportunity to invite someone else to help you write that story.

Carlos: 00:14:32

So you're kind of co-creating what that could be.

Carlos: 00:14:34

You are inviting someone at this early stage rather than saying, this is what I'm gonna do for you, let's have a conversation about where you want to get to, what you want to do, and let's try and do that together.

Carlos: 00:14:43

And through that, them telling the story at the beginning of where, where they want to get to.

Carlos: 00:14:48

And then once you work with 'em, them tendering the story of the end where they got to, you've then got another really useful, valuable story that creates a level of un level of certainty, a path that other people have followed that you can then use for the next person.

Carlos: 00:15:02

So while at the beginning you kind of have to.

Carlos: 00:15:06

Make up at least tell an asto assumption of a story, of a journey that you think people will get on, but then be open to that story evolving as you work with more and more people.

Frances: 00:15:16

Yes.

Frances: 00:15:16

Lovely.

Frances: 00:15:17

That's really nice, Carlos.

Frances: 00:15:18

Now, if you're not using storytelling, It begs the question, are you predominantly talking about selling a product to somebody as opposed to telling a story about their experience, potentially in, in buying your product or working with you?

Frances: 00:15:33

And just the feeling of being on the receiving end of somebody who you immediately understand is trying to sell your product is going to have a particular sort of effect on a subconscious level, as opposed to just simply, Experiencing someone telling a story about either themselves or, yeah, I mean, let's just look at Emma as an example.

Frances: 00:15:56

You know, When you experience Emma and you, you see these wonderful things that she produces that are so full of life and color and joy, it tells a story about sort of what it is to be with Emma and to work with Emma.

Frances: 00:16:09

And you know, I talk a lot about the kind of meta experience of working with someone that can be conveyed through your marketing, through your storytelling.

Frances: 00:16:17

And let's just imagine that we're sitting around a campfire and you know, somebody saying, come over here, come and listen to this story, everyone gather close.

Frances: 00:16:27

Um, and you know, you kind of creep up to the fire and it's nice and warm and nobody's guaranteeing where the story's gonna go.

Frances: 00:16:34

Is it gonna be a ghost story?

Frances: 00:16:35

Is it gonna be a really comforting tale.

Frances: 00:16:38

Are you gonna end up getting sleep at the end of it?

Frances: 00:16:41

Are you gonna feel really excited by the end of it?

Frances: 00:16:43

You don't know, but it's just everyone's coming together, and you just feel like you wanna be there and hear the story, um, and it, it's something that you need right now.

Frances: 00:16:54

And if we try and feel into the inner child, um, and the things that would really excite us know when we were younger, before we had to grow up and before people took away joy, um, you know, that's where the beauty of storytelling comes into this whole selling, uh, pricing marketing thing.

Frances: 00:17:13

And pricing is just an exchange.

Frances: 00:17:15

You know, don't forget that you go to the marketplace to buy food.

Frances: 00:17:20

You don't go there because you don't need stuff.

Frances: 00:17:22

You are going there because you have a need.

Frances: 00:17:25

And somebody is saying, here's something, is this what you need?

Frances: 00:17:29

And it's either like, yep or nope.

Frances: 00:17:32

And the clarity with which you can present what you have, why you have it.

Frances: 00:17:37

Is it fresh, how much it costs, and you know you're going to wrap it for someone and they can come back next week and get.

Frances: 00:17:44

The same again and not waste their time shopping around, this is all part of the pricing story, um, and it makes people feel safe and it makes 'em feel reassured and it makes 'em feel that they've done something that they have set out to achieve or that they needed to make their life better.

Frances: 00:18:00

So we get so caught up in guilt and shame and all these.

Frances: 00:18:04

Adult themes around pricing and marketing when actually it's just a simple exchange that as a child we might find so much easier with such innocence.

Frances: 00:18:14

And I like the idea of storytelling, speaking to that in a child.

Frances: 00:18:17

And that kind of I innocence of pre sort of the pre post-trauma anxieties that as adults we feel.

Carlos: 00:18:26

the kind of that feeling of curiosity I think that I, I was getting when you're talking about the campfire is people wanting to be curious.

Carlos: 00:18:34

And, and I would just wanna talk to maybe and just connect it a bit to what Neil was asking around trying to sell WordPress maintenance.

Carlos: 00:18:40

Um, I, I'm guilty of this myself, and I've, and I can imagine a few of you can relate to this, is you get to the point of needing to sell because you've run outta customers.

Carlos: 00:18:51

You know, you've enjoyed the work.

Carlos: 00:18:52

You've spent some time working with a coaching client, or you've done a project and then you're on the end of the project and go, shit, I need another customer.

Carlos: 00:19:00

And so what happens is there's this energy of desperation that's associated selling, and so it's like, fuck storytelling, I don't have time.

Carlos: 00:19:07

I just need to sell for someone.

Carlos: 00:19:08

Buy this thing.

Carlos: 00:19:09

So I'm just gonna talk about the thing.

Carlos: 00:19:11

It does this, I do word planning.

Carlos: 00:19:13

It involves updates.

Carlos: 00:19:15

It involves so many hours.

Carlos: 00:19:17

The hours cost this much.

Carlos: 00:19:19

Or it's like, oh my God, uh, it is, uh, the course has got 40 different modules and we've got all of this content and it works like this.

Carlos: 00:19:27

So you're talking very much about the stuff that you do because there's an energy of I need to tell people as much as possible about it.

Carlos: 00:19:35

When it comes to the storytelling bit that is a longer tail journey, I think, and it's all still a part of the selling.

Carlos: 00:19:43

And for instance, with WordPress ma, WordPress maintenance, where it's quite a technical thing, and I used to run a digital agency as well, Neil, so I understand what it means to try and communicate technical information or the, the, the value of technical work to people, my experience, most of the people, they don't care.

Carlos: 00:20:00

They don't care.

Carlos: 00:20:01

The only time they care about technology is when it goes wrong.

Carlos: 00:20:04

My phone's run outta space or my website's crashed, or whatever, that's when they really care and then they like, they want you as much as possible.

Carlos: 00:20:13

When it's something in the future, it's like, ugh?

Carlos: 00:20:16

Particularly around maintenance.

Carlos: 00:20:17

And I can remember trying to sell maintenance contracts.

Carlos: 00:20:19

It's hard and I, I've did it really badly.

Carlos: 00:20:23

When I think about it now, one way I think if you're gonna use storytelling is to talk to your existing customers.

Carlos: 00:20:30

And to start talking about how, what ease does it create in their lives to have you around?

Carlos: 00:20:36

Um, one of the things we talk about on the Happy Pricing Course is people buy two things, good feelings and solutions.

Carlos: 00:20:43

And so if you can start telling a story that weaves in the good feelings and solutions.

Carlos: 00:20:48

So for instance, in your case, Neil, and I'm just guessing from my knowledge of technology is that a solution is my software.

Carlos: 00:20:57

Sometimes the add-ons that I have, my WordPress adss, they break because they don't have the right update.

Carlos: 00:21:02

And being able to have the updates timely, done, timely and checked means my website never dies.

Carlos: 00:21:09

The good feeling is like I'm never stressed or worried that my website's gonna go down.

Carlos: 00:21:15

So I know my customers are always gonna get there.

Carlos: 00:21:17

And as a busy entrepreneur or solopreneur, Or a big business that relies on this website, it is amazing to be able to just continually to grow our business and serve our customers without having to worry about the tech.

Carlos: 00:21:30

That's just for me, one way to think of talking about the story.

Carlos: 00:21:34

And Neil, you say you're not sure if peace of mind is enough.

Carlos: 00:21:37

No peace of mind isn't necessarily enough.

Carlos: 00:21:40

But if you can frame it within, what does peace of mind gain them?

Carlos: 00:21:44

What can they do now that they have peace of mind?

Carlos: 00:21:48

And if they don't have peace of mind, what is it that they, what happens?

Carlos: 00:21:52

What is the cost of not having peace of mind?

Carlos: 00:21:55

And this is where you can start getting really kind of into the meat of the story because you can start saying, talk to people who've had struggles when they haven't done good enough workplace mainten, uh, their maintenance or their WordPress sites.

Frances: 00:22:08

Neil.

Frances: 00:22:09

I wanna talk about what else your customers are thinking about as a opposed to, you know, in addition to WordPress, like who are they as human beings?

Frances: 00:22:18

Don't just wanna talk about WordPress all day long.

Frances: 00:22:21

It's nice to hear that you can sort out their websites, but who, who are they?

Carlos: 00:22:25

This relates and Connects a bit to what you were talking about before in terms of niching.

Carlos: 00:22:29

and

Frances: 00:22:29

it does

Carlos: 00:22:30

telling the story of the people rather than the technology.

Frances: 00:22:33

Yeah.

Frances: 00:22:33

Neil, I want, I wanna hear like, who is it, whose websites you're particularly interested in working on, you know, to help them in their lives?

Frances: 00:22:41

Because they are important to you as people.

Frances: 00:22:44

And I don't wanna also neglect, um, a really good question from Leia Davies here who says, I feel like my messaging and content uses story and I have people who resonate and see themselves in it.

Frances: 00:22:57

They comment, reply to my newsletters, uh, but it doesn't go any further.

Frances: 00:23:02

For example, booking a clarity call.

Frances: 00:23:04

So I feel like people like what I talk about, but maybe don't see the value in working with me.

Frances: 00:23:10

Great question or point Leah.

Frances: 00:23:13

You know, this comes up a lot in the coaching industry.

Frances: 00:23:16

Um, and one thing I'll just, I just wanna impart before we close off today, is that as a coach, and I'm assuming you are, 'cause you talk about clarity call, you are able to do coaching in your marketing and good coaching is about holding space, asking penetrating questions.

Frances: 00:23:34

So the next step along from telling that really interesting story that people are engaging in, which is fantastic, is to ask these questions and to package your clarity call is an opportunity for people to be seen and for you to ask them questions about where they are and what's happening for them.

Frances: 00:23:52

Um, and you know, this might be more about having everything in place so that people understand that the invitation is to book a call with you and that they are someone that you would like to book a call with, as opposed to that they don't see the value in working with you.

Frances: 00:24:09

And I'd like to break this down with you on another occasion because, you know, I see this happening a lot, uh, with coaches and I can feel there's a confidence thing going on in terms of the value of working with you.

Frances: 00:24:21

And I think it might be more of a kind of storytelling and technical marketing thing that might be going on.

Frances: 00:24:27

So thank you so much, uh, for that comment.

Frances: 00:24:31

Neil also says, is scary stories a good tactic though?

Frances: 00:24:34

No, uh, I don't, well, I would say, you know, Simon and I very much, uh, sort of practice what we call ethical marketing.

Frances: 00:24:42

And so one of the things that we don't like is scaremongering charm pricing, uh, countdown sales, uh, promises to 10 x people's income.

Frances: 00:24:52

Abusing people's vulnerabilities.

Frances: 00:24:54

And you know, when we talk about problem unaware and the transition to problem aware, what we're not trying to do is freak you out that if you don't deal with your problems now you're gonna die.

Frances: 00:25:03

So I think there's plenty of other ways, uh, to tell really beautiful, uh, comforting stories to a child, let's say, without freaking the fuck outta them.

Frances: 00:25:12

It's not necessary.

Frances: 00:25:14

I hope that answers the question, Neil.

Carlos: 00:25:16

I'm gonna add to that though.

Carlos: 00:25:17

Um.

Carlos: 00:25:18

I think scaremongering is not necessarily helpful, but there's also being informative about why it's important to, why, you know, maintenance, there's a reason for maintenance.

Carlos: 00:25:29

And I think the, most people don't like to maintain things 'cause they find it's boring.

Carlos: 00:25:37

But when things go badly, then they realize it's a good thing to think about maintenance.

Carlos: 00:25:42

So while.

Carlos: 00:25:44

I, I feel the, the energy behind that question is like, we don't want to basically be selling fear or selling based on fear.

Carlos: 00:25:55

I was thinking of it more from care.

Carlos: 00:25:56

It's love.

Carlos: 00:25:57

It's like we want to make sure that you are all, you know, you don't have to have the hassle and stress of things going down and things breaking and, because when you're in that space, you just can't think properly and then you're panicked and you're trying to, you're not able to, to work with your clients better.

Carlos: 00:26:12

You're not able to sleep better there.

Carlos: 00:26:13

There's so many things that you could avoid.

Frances: 00:26:16

And look at who Neil wants to work with.

Frances: 00:26:18

Um,

Carlos: 00:26:18

Yeah.

Frances: 00:26:18

Or he's saying he has a lot of experience in the education space.

Frances: 00:26:21

Coaches change makers.

Frances: 00:26:22

You wanna make a difference, membership websites, et cetera.

Frances: 00:26:25

So if Neil is saying, look, you get on with what you do, you get on with what you're trying to do, it's so important.

Frances: 00:26:31

It's so important to me.

Frances: 00:26:32

Let me help you.

Frances: 00:26:34

Don't waste your time.

Frances: 00:26:35

It's your responsibility as a change maker to not waste time on your bloody website.

Frances: 00:26:40

It's not necessary.

Frances: 00:26:41

It's not a good use of your time.

Frances: 00:26:43

And that's the story.

Carlos: 00:26:45

And this for me relates to your whole, uh, journey of consciousness.

Carlos: 00:26:49

It's like a lot of people, and again, this is from my experience anyway, technology are unaware of the problems.

Carlos: 00:26:55

They have no idea what it takes to keep something running smooth that is, can get particularly complex.

Carlos: 00:27:02

And so it also speaks to me in terms of, when you're selling, having the right customer.

Carlos: 00:27:06

'cause if someone doesn't really care about their website and it's quite a simple WordPress site, they're not gonna really invest much time and energy in into maintaining it.

Carlos: 00:27:15

But if they have something that is quite complex, if they've got loads of plugins, it it, they do mo all their business through it, those are the kind of people who are gonna really care and may not be aware of all the intricacies and all the challenges that might be evolved, particularly if they're on that cusp of blowing up in terms of business.

Carlos: 00:27:34

So there's a part of me is, part of this is for me, yes, don't sell fear, but B, you need to sell awareness.

Carlos: 00:27:42

And C, you need to be selling awareness to the people that you know need to be aware.

Frances: 00:27:47

Right.

Frances: 00:27:47

And also if he works in the education space, then let's bring in the word education here.

Frances: 00:27:52

You've talked about awareness and not scaremongering, but this is a, you know, Neil's story is, I see that, you know, you've got a lot on, and I'd like to relieve you of what you already know, but I'd also really like to educate you as to how much better this could be.

Frances: 00:28:06

And, you know, for people who are in the business of appreciating education and learning, that's gonna land, you know.

Frances: 00:28:13

That's not gonna be, you're not talking to people who don't like to be told that they could learn.

Frances: 00:28:18

Um, you know, so it's knowing your audience.

Frances: 00:28:21

It's knowing the kind of way in which to talk to people, so that it resonates because it's part of their business as well.

Frances: 00:28:28

Um, they want to know you speak the same language as them, and then they'll trust you.

Frances: 00:28:33

And why would they work with you as opposed to any other WordPress maintenance person.

Frances: 00:28:37

That's what you've gotta tell the story of.

Frances: 00:28:39

Why you?

Carlos: 00:28:39

I would also, I'd also suggest finding other stories that you can use.

Carlos: 00:28:43

This is where, for me, like reading widely.

Carlos: 00:28:46

And you know, I think Neil was talking about taking a stoic approach.

Carlos: 00:28:49

So I've been curious to know what that means in terms of his storytelling.

Carlos: 00:28:53

But for instance, I'm, the story that springs to mind is, uh, James Clear and his atomic habits, and one of the things he talks about is the difference between good habits and bad habits.

Carlos: 00:29:02

A bad habits is short-term gain for long-term pain.

Carlos: 00:29:06

A good tablet is short-term pain for long-term gain.

Carlos: 00:29:09

How can you use that story in the story of maintenance to help people understand the value of doing things regularly and doing things consistently, and being always on top of the small things, and what that means in terms of a big beneficial outcome in the future.

Carlos: 00:29:27

Because I then, for me, then that starts to get people to understand, 'cause you can relate it to fitness and to diet and to all of these things people then think, oh yeah, yeah.

Carlos: 00:29:35

When I do a good thing, you know, a, a thing once a day or, you know, on a regular basis, it can create a positive outcome.

Carlos: 00:29:43

And that, for me is another thing around storytelling.

Carlos: 00:29:46

What, what metaphors, what analogies, what other stories can you bring in to tell the story of your work?

Carlos: 00:29:51

Right.

Frances: 00:29:52

If you've enjoyed this story, you should definitely do the Happy Pricing course with Carlos.

Frances: 00:29:57

It's a real journey.

Frances: 00:29:59

And, uh, I'd also love to speak to people about this and anything else that's on their minds in relation to marketing, and you can find me a betterbolderbraver.com.

Frances: 00:30:09

My name is Frances khalastchi.

Carlos: 00:30:10

Awesome.

Carlos: 00:30:11

Thank you very much everyone.