Episode 44

What to Do When People Say You’re Too Expensive

Understanding your value can help you price more confidently, without being brash. When we understand our target audience and what they need, we can create a perception of value that resonates with them. But we need to be prepared to handle rejection and understand that a "no" isn’t necessarily the end of the conversation.

If we don't communicate the value of our work properly, we undervalue it and risk missing out on valuable client relationships.

This week, Carlos is joined by Frances and Simon from the Better Bolder Braver community, who help coaches market their work with more ease. That involves having tricky conversations around pricing, and being able to clearly communicate the value they bring.

This episode is perfect for you if you

  • Want to learn how to confidently set prices
  • Are interested in understanding how to convey your work’s value to potential clients
  • Need advice on dealing with rejection and building confidence in pricing conversations

Links

Transcript
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I'm feeling great.

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And I think it's 'cause I had lunch and I think that makes

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a, a really big difference.

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I've conquered postcodes, so we're all good.

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Simon has conquered postcodes now.

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Try and interpret that one if you can.

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Welcome to another Happy Pricing podcast without

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Ben Johnson, who's still on holiday, hiding behind

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a bush in Greece somewhere.

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So because I don't like being on my own, uh, I have brought

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along two playmates, uh, Simon and Frances from the better

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Boulder Breaker community.

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We are gonna be talking today about this idea

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of a pricing philosophy.

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it was brought to my attention by Frances and it was a post

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from a post by Derek Sivers.

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So I thought we, I'll talk through what Derek Sivers

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wrote just briefly, and then we're gonna have a bit of

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a, an emergent conversation around our opinions about

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what it means to have a pricing philosophy, and

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Simon and Frances have their own, um, sort of stances

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on this and given what they would do in terms of helping

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coaches market themselves with more confidence and

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what that means in terms of our attitudes to pricing.

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And I'll share philosophy or perspective from the

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Happy Startup School.

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Uh, and hopefully we'll come to some conclusions that will

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help you if you are struggling with pricing or thinking

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about pricing and wanting to get paid your, your worth

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and what that, and even if wondering what that means,

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maybe we can touch on that.

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So, to begin with, this post, I think it was called

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Pricing Philosophy or, and, and it was based on, uh,

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a story when, uh, Derek Sivvers was, was in college.

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He used to play music and he was invited, uh, to

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play at another college, which was 12 hours away.

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Uh, and he was asked for his rates and he said it

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was $1,500 for two hour set.

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And so of course the person who was asking about the price

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said, Ooh, that's a bit much.

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How much would you charge for one hour with a chill course?

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You'd think it's gonna be $750.

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He said, actually, it's gonna cost $2,000.

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And that caused a bit of cognitive dissonance,

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I would assume, in the person thinking,

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oh, well, we're there.

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I'm getting less, but I'm paying more.

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What does that mean?

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And this is where Derek Sivers goes into this whole

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idea of a pricing philosophy.

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And his story, and this is gonna be about stories,

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was that he enjoys music.

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You know, he would love to play for two hours for them.

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What they're paying for is the fact that he has to travel

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12 hours or 24 hours there and back in order to play.

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And so if he's only gonna play one hour, He's gonna have to

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be compensated for that trip.

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That means the loss of enjoyment for him.

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So he is gonna charge them $2,000 for the, for the

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boundaries that he's gonna have to push in order to

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make that happen for them.

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And so they settled on $1,500, which was a price

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according to the person who was asking was a bit too much.

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But then it made sense to them.

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And so he got what he needed.

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He got paid his worth.

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They were happy paying that money.

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All good.

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I was just, um, marveling at the beautiful quality

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of confidence and sort of being able to live for quite

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a long time before you die, aware of what it is that your

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whole life has been about.

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Um, and the bliss that is being at a point where you

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can just really calmly and confidently articulate what

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it is that you live for in such a way that it just

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doesn't really demand too much debate and someone is

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just, the resolve in that is, and the clarity in that is

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just so wonderful, and it's something that I think we can

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all, we should all aspire to.

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Perception of value is what it was all about for me.

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So rather than challenging, it was just changing the

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perception of value in from one person to another.

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And I think a lot of the sort of stuff we talk

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about, particularly with pricing, is just all

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about perception of value.

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Right.

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Okay.

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So there's things, there's two themes here that

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we immediately could start talking about.

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One is what I'm hearing from Frances, this idea

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of confidence and the confidence with which you

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present yourself or present your prices or, or back up.

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Your prices.

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And then there's this other thing of like, I,

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the perception of value.

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What, what is value here?

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What, what am I, what am I buying?

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Why am I paying this much money for something?

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And which is a curious one.

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And with this example, because um, it's clearly, well, maybe

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there's something we can talk about, what we can assume.

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This person was buying, um, and why they were paying

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that much money and why they were prepared to pay, uh,

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a sum of money that they initially thought was a lot,

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and they could fall back on.

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Um, but maybe we start off with the confidence

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thing, um, and the importance of confidence.

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'cause you know, one of the things I remember in my agency

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days that, um, when we would complain that we weren't being

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profitable enough, making enough money is like, oh, you

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should just double your rates.

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I was like, eh, how'd you do that?

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It's like, how do I justify doubling my rates?

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And for me there was this thing about, you know,

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being able to confidently do that, but what does

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it take to be able to be confident just to do that?

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I think this is where we, we segue from, you know,

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Simon and I, and you and Ben.

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Uh, there's some healthy friction in our approach.

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So when I talk about confidence, what I don't

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like the idea of is someone drinking a load of Red

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Bull and sort of having someone punch them in

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the tummy going like that before they go on stage

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and then being like, double my price, double my price.

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You know, that's the kind of confidence

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that really worries me.

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When I'm talking about confidence it's, it's really

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the clarity thing about, um, being quite clear that what

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you have is what someone else needs, and being able

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to gift to them a story that will be meaningful, um, so

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that they can understand.

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So there's first the respect for yourself, the dignity,

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the confidence that you want to be doing this work,

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that it's right for you.

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And then it's the confidence to deliver something that's

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gonna land with someone because it's what they

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need, not just the kind of arbitrary ego doubling.

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Thing that's like double the money 'cause why the fuck not?

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You know?

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So that's, and, and that's the thing I get a little

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bit anxious about and that's what sometimes we have

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healthy, uh, I think we get to kind of healthy point

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of, um, tension around.

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Well, I think confidence really stems from where

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you are starting your pricing conversation.

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So if you are starting the conversation from a position

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of power, ie the person selling, so you're the

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person with the knowledge, then your perception of

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the value is clear to you.

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And therefore it's easy to be confident that you

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are delivering something of value in your work.

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But it's also easy to then doubt yourself that

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their, that that perception of value is being seen

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by the other person.

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So a lot of the work I think in pricing is not

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really about the number on the price, really.

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For me, it comes down to the creating that perception

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of value and therefore what price you can put

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against the value that seems like a fair exchange.

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So to me, the confidence is, as Frances was saying, it's

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not about just arbitrarily going, oh, it's 10 grand.

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And then someone going, that's a lot.

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And you're like, well, yeah.

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Is it, you know, or just being like bolshy with it,

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it's like if you feel that the value that you can

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exchange at a certain price makes that balance for both

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you and the person buying, then in my mind you are,

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that adds to the confidence and you can build on that.

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So it may be that you do something the first time and

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then you think, oh, do you know what this isn't actually

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working for me financially, I need to double the price.

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'Cause if I don't double the price, I

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can't afford to do it.

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Or, well, if I double the price, I can hire a

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nicer room and then people will be more engaged and

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they'll get more out of it.

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And then it's just that conversation you can have.

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So confidence to me is about opening the conversation

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about the value exchange that you are about to embark on.

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Yeah, the, the thing that's coming up for me

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now in terms of this, um, healthy friction, I think

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you said Frances, around this idea of confidence.

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Uh, Anya was mentioning it here, the difference between,

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I was gonna say aggressive confidence and she calls it

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bravado and healthy self.

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Healthy self-worth.

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What I feel is like a more kind of passive confidence.

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There's a grounded confidence.

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And I don't wanna say there's a black or white here, because

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I think there is something around, some people know

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that they're doing really good work and it's really

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important work, but they just need that bravado to be

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able to express themselves because of some other

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issues around self-worth.

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And there's a, there's a, there's a balance here

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I think, between knowing that you have something

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valuable, but then also tying.

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Your self-worth to whether that outcome

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is created or not.

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So there's this uncertainty that the

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customer will actually be happy with the outcome.

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And if they're not happy, how's that

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gonna make you feel?

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And you suddenly think, oh, I don't want the risk

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of disappointing someone.

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So there's something about actually, and how

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do you push through that?

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And then there's that real knowledge of, I've done this a

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million times, I know exactly how this is gonna turn out.

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I have, you know, I, I've experienced this enough to

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know that this is good stuff.

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And so I, I definitely agree that there is

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something here around the, the, the right type of

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confidence is a ground.

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I'm gonna say grounded confidence, and I know that

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this is good, but it's not.

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I think the, the interesting thing about this in terms of

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pricing, and you talk about value, it's like, I, I might

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know that this is amazing stuff, but it's only gonna be

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valuable to certain people.

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And so there's this aspect here, when I think of the

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Derek Sivers story around, I'm gonna call 'em, I'm

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going to talk about maybe the boundaries aspect of that.

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It's like I don't get out of bed for less than $1,500.

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I'm sorry, full stop.

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That's the confidence I have.

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And well, it's not even the confidence, it's like it's

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the confidence in terms of the boundaries, the confidence

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I have in my boundaries.

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It's like, I don't want to do this unless it's

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this much money full stop.

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And that's less about whether this is fair or not.

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You know, whether it is, you know, it's up to you to

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decide whether it's a value in invo comm, and then there's

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the story about, okay, what does this work mean to me?

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So there's confidence in the calculation and then there's

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confidence in the delivery.

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And I think it's important that we are clear that

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we're talking about two different things.

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Um, and it might be then that we agree that

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we are in agreement.

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Um, so the confidence in the calculation is the opposite

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of arbitrary doubling.

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Confidence in calculation is what we spend the first

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month, we're gonna be spending the first month with the

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coaches that are taking our Creating Conversations group

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program, uh, working on.

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And it's the, it's what Simon talked about, which it is

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the, it's the sort of how much money do you need to earn to

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make your business survive?

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What's your work work balance?

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Do you have another stream of revenue?

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how have you worked out the value of the service that

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you deliver to the person that you'd like to work with

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because it energizes you?

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Um, so what does a price that makes sense

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actually look like?

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And, and are you confident in the calculation?

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Because if you just double, then you will not be going

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into pricing conversations with real confidence about why

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you are spinning that story.

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So there's that confidence in there, uh, calculation.

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And outta that comes the confidence in delivery.

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And the confidence in delivery is also about being able to

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be articulate, is the body language, is the clarity when

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you're niching, and you have worked out behind the scenes

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why it is that you price the thing that you price,

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what it is that you won't get out of bed for, and then

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the clarity and confidence in delivery it's being able

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to explain the why to the people that you care about.

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I, i, I think Frances has sort of hit that nail on

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the head, which is the, the delivery of it is, is the bit

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that we feel, and it's the bit that really is what puts

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people off and makes people feel awkward about price.

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If we get coaches in a room, Zoom room, and we

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talk about pricing, we can all have a conversation

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openly and everyone's fine.

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They can get their calculators out and

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everyone can come up with the numbers and it's fine.

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So to me it's the costs and the accounting bit

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and the numbers is, is the easy bit of pricing.

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The really difficult bit is trying to convey the value.

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Because you can set a price that you would like to

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exchange your value for, and it the only person

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who gets to decide whether that's right is the client.

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And if they say no, then all they're saying to you

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is you've not got those that balance from right yet.

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So one of the best things I got taught from a sales

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coach once was somebody who says no, is just

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saying, I don't understand.

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Help me understand more.

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If they say I can't afford it, they're just saying,

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I'm not ready to commit yet.

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And it may be that they're never gonna be ready to

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commit because they can never make that balance.

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But no is just an opportunity to have a different

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conversation or to help them understand it further.

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And I think part of what is important in pricing is

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getting no, I think that's a really important bit.

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And when we.

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We're working with this sales coach a few years ago.

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He challenged us to go out and get 10 nos.

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He's like, write the next five or 10 proposals and

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price them so insanely high that people say no, 'cause I

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just want you to be on a call where someone says no to you.

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And we did it and it's really odd.

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It's a horrible feeling to get, but you suddenly

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get used to the fact that people just say no.

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When the price is silly high, they just say no.

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But then when you set the price and you think you've

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got that value balance, right, you just feel so

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much better about it.

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But it's just that experience of being like, you've got

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to, you have to have nos to make the yeses feel more, I

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dunno, I don't wanna use the word authentic, but it just

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feels better to have that conversation once you know

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that yeah, someone might say no to me and that's okay.

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the phrase that was springing to mind there

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was aversion therapy.

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Like how do you expose yourself to the thing that

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you dread most enough so it doesn't feel so painful?

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So that, that's, that, that makes sense to me.

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Mm-hmm.

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however, it is that fee.

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I think this is the thing around confidence and nos.

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I like the way we got here because it is, I think one of

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the challenges for a lot of people is that fear of the no.

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And then to be able to present ourselves with confidence

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despite that fear of the no.

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And so I'm linking this to pricing philosophy, because

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when I think of a pricing philosophies, an underlying

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set of beliefs or guidelines that you hold onto really

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closely as very important to you, that backs up why

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you have a certain price.

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And so it's something you can fall back on, you can draw

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strength from, when you are in a position of someone saying

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no, which is what happened in the story as I understand it.

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I'm just, uh, remembering an experience that Simon and

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I have had recently where someone booked a call with

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us to come onto our program.

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And I ended up saying to her, you're not

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coming on the program.

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Because she is not going to be able to get out of it what

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we need, what we want for her.

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She's not, she can do the next one.

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She's not doing this one.

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And when you get to a point of confidence in what you

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have, uh, to give and who it is that you need to

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be giving it to, it stops even being about price.

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What you want is to be able to move on from the price.

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The price is an incidental thing that, you know,

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it is just part of the flow of the conversation

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And, you know, you also need to be able

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to show your workings.

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And the other thing that Simon and I do is we have

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a, a slide which tells stories about the price.

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And we have a, we have a slide in our, in our brochure

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which says, here's how this price relates to where you

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are at and the kind of things that you are gonna be doing.

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And, you know, it's a, it's a cute marketing little

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technique, but it's also just like, Here's, here's

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how we've come to this price.

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Do you know?

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It's like, here's how we've come to this price

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for you, and, you know, the price works for us

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and we kind of like, we're pretty ambivalent about it.

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We don't need to dwell on it and have like

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endless conversations about what the value is.

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'cause we've made it clear.

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So we wanna get to the juicy stuff, which is like,

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what are you gonna do?

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And, and like, I dunno, uh, I just think it, it, the

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more confident you are about again, who you wanna work

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with, why, what the price is, the, the quicker you

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can say not for you now.

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Yes.

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For you now.

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and you can have fun with it.

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And we had another really fun conversation recently

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with someone who was.

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Sort of not sure they wanted to do the program.

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And I said to, I said to them, I think 80% of what

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you're saying is right and there's 20% of it, which

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doesn't make any sense at all.

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And it was fun and we all had a laugh.

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And there's this kind of ambivalence to it as Simon

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says, you like, I don't love the idea of like

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self-flagellating by aversion therapy, as you called it,

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Carlos, like I can think of better ways, personally

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to advance emotionally than inviting a load of abuse just

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for the sake that I might be better, I might fare better

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next time I'm, um, faced with violence or something.

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But, you know, I, I get the point.

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Yeah.

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But I think, I think, I think you're taking it a

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little bit too literally in the sense that a no is not

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the end of the conversation, it's the beginning.

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Of the next bit.

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So getting intentionally starting a conversation with

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the aim of getting a no, just gets you practice in where

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you go with that conversation.

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Because I think a lot of people don't

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know what to do next.

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And there's a couple of things, like there's that

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thing I come from years ago with with the guy who

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did the Fail Olympics, and he essentially tried

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to get someone to say no to him every day.

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So he'd just go into like a coffee shop and say, oh, hey,

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can I get a 10% discount?

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They'd be like, no.

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They'd be like, oh, okay.

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And then just carry on with his day.

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But someone said no, and he got let down.

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But then like one day he went in and he's like, Hey,

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like my favorite num, he went into a donut shop and

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he is like, my favorite number is number eight.

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So could I get like two donuts joined together

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as a number eight?

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And they were like, yeah, yeah, I can do that.

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And he's like, cool.

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And he's like, no one's ever asked that.

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I'll just, I'll just do it for one donut.

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And he's like, oh, okay, it works.

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But like, because he had the confidence to go in and ask

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a silly question, it's not necessarily that you need to

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have someone like shout at you for 10 minutes and have

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just, you know, absolutely destroy you for your quote,

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it's more just if you open the conversation knowing

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that no is an option, then you get used to essentially

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coaching people back from no.

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And I think there's, there's some really interesting

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ideas and techniques in, um, the Chris Voss book.

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Never Split the Difference.

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He, he was an, uh, f b I hostage negotiator, and it's

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unbelievable some of the stuff he's talking about where

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he's like, I've got a room full of people and there's

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an armed person in there.

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I've just gotta talk to this person and see

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if I can get them out.

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And then, you know, he's like, obviously no is gonna come up.

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So how do you deal with no?

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And he's got some really interesting techniques

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about making it personal and interesting and fun.

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Um, if anyone's on Masterclass, he's also got,

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he also does the book as a masterclass if you're

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on the masterclass app.

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Um, which is really good.

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But, um, or just look up him talking about it.

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But some of his techniques for no is.

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Is is fascinating.

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I think there's a, there's a psychology, but there's a

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lot of psychology in here.

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The way I'm looking at this idea of how working with the

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nos, what I would offer to anyone listening to this is

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if you are in this space where you are basically aiming low

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to avoid a no, then this is why you need to hear the no,

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because you can't negotiate yourself up because they're

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gonna say, yeah, of course I'm gonna pay you 20 quid

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for this, when actually you want a hundred quid.

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If you then aim high or higher, at least

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you have some way.

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When you get the no, as Simon says, to work out, why not?

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Why aren't you spending?

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And this is because they're not prepared to spend that

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money, or there's something they don't understand?

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And that's when you can start having a conversation.

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So while receiving lots of nos can be dis demoralizing and,

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and disheartening, ultimately, it's for people I believe,

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who always aim low because you don't want to get the no.

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So if you want to get a yes that feels good for you and is

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acceptable to the other person because no, no customer,

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you know, none of us wanna spend more money than we need

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to, but we will spend money if it makes sense to us.

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And if it makes the supplier happy and it makes sense to

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us, then at least it's gonna be a helpful, transaction.

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In a conversation with a potential client, I want

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people to feel far more uncomfortable if they get

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off that call and they feel that they have undercharged

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than with the potential no.

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And I think in order to avoid the discomfort of

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having undercharged, which can really bode badly for

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a future, for, you know, coaching relationship.

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You, you want to go into that relationship with

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confidence, joy, and a real deep hope for the person

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that is working with you.

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And if you, if you come to the first session with

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a sense that you've under charge, that's firstly going

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to compromise your future as a business, but it's

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also not ethically, right.

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So you need to, you need to have, uh, left off from that

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pricing conversation or that, that conversation where you

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onboard someone, with a real sense of dignity, confidence,

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and, um, conviction that what you have charged is,

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is what you need to be paid.

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And that feeling, those feelings are much more

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important for me than how good you are at dealing with a no.

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For me, there's something here around, again, these

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boundaries, these limits, this need for sustainability,

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not to just be there to help other people because you just

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like helping other people and then not helping yourself.

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And, and that is not gonna help people in the long

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run if you're not around because you can't put a

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roof over your head or you can't pay for your own food.

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There's something very important around

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that self-care.

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And it's interesting you brought up the ethical

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aspect of this as well.

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It's like if you are allowing people to take advantage of

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you because you don't have the confidence to charge your

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worth, or charge what they need to be paying because

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of the value it creates in their lives, then, yeah, that

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doesn't feel fair either.

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I'd like to just see if we can put to bed this idea

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of a pricing philosophy by sharing maybe any thoughts

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that you would offer a listener to help them create

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their own pricing philosophy.

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I love the idea that in any form of marketing, whether

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it's pricing, producing content, networking, that we

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are showing our best self, and fostering in our potential

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client a confidence that they can follow us on this

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journey of confidence and joy.

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So we should use pricing alongside a lot of the

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other things in marketing to show our best self.

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And it forms part of, as I described it yesterday to

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one of our community members, our portfolio of strength.

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Like it's a, it's a meta message about why working

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with us is gonna feel good.

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The way that we carry on in any interaction, including a

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pricing conversation, should foster in someone a sense

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of confidence in who we are.

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I think in a pricing philosophy, uh, mine would

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be around letting go of that kind of amount of time and

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effort you've put into getting to where you've got so far.

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Um, not to say your experience or your knowledge or

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investment in yourself, but just in terms of, you know,

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if you've spent x number of hours making something or

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it's gonna take you x number of hours to deliver it,

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then actually that's of no consequence to the client.

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That doesn't make any difference to their

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end experience of it.

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So I think disconnecting your sort of time or sunk

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cost, if you see what I mean, from the value that

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you are trying to communicate is, is such a, a, it, it

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frees you to think about value in a different way.

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So if you spent six hours delivering coaching, it

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doesn't mean you need to just work out an hourly

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rate and times a by six.

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It's you that's meaningless to the client and it's

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meaningless to think of it in hourly rates, because me

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hourly rates don't, aren't connected in any way to value.

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They're an exchange of time and that's on an open

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market and I can always find someone cheaper.

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So as soon as you disconnect time from your value, then

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you are opening a really interesting conversation.

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'Cause it's like, well, I'll work together, will

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count this many sessions and include these things, and the

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value of that work is this.

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Whereas if it's like, oh, my sessions are 25 pounds

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an hour or 50 pounds an hour and there's five of them.

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It's like, brilliant.

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That's fine.

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But I've got a coach around the corner that'll do it

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for 47 50, so it's fine.

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It's like there's, there's no value in pricing per hour.

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It's an open market conversation, which is always

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someone will do it cheaper.

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So I think the value disconnect would be

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my pricing philosophy.

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When I'm thinking about pricing philosophy, I've,

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I'm, now, I'm kind of like verging on this idea of

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a pricing manifesto, a personal pricing manifesto.

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It's your own set of beliefs and so some key things

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that spring up for me.

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Values alignment.

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I will only work with certain people.

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Not because I'm gonna stop people, but this is what I

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believe in, these are the things that I believe in.

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And so there's an alignment that's needed to be created,

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and that's what it's foundational to my pricing.

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I don't price based on time.

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I price based on value.

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And that's a core belief I think that you, what

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is that core belief for you that you incorporate

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in terms of your pricing?

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And then I, I think there's something here around

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your own wish for people.

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What is the wish that you have for people?

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What is that?

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Real deep desire to see, what changes that you

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wanna see in the world?

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And some people that change is meaningless

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and for some people it is the difference between

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life and death and being able to incorporate that.

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I think, and I think it Connects to what you guys do

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in terms of marketing because it's like, if we can infuse

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how we talk about our work with the way we also, we

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talk about our prices, then there's a congruence and a

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clarity that removes some of the uncertainty that people

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may feel when they're just about to spend money with you.

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You might also like to think of a pricing conversation

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as you, uh, sort of interviewing someone for the

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opportunity to work with you.

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It's not like you wanna grill them, but Simon

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and I are very motivated because the people that we

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help are people helpers.

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So the effect that we can have on the world is greater

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because we're helping people who can help others.

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And you do it as well, Carlos.

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You only have capacity to take on one, two, maybe

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three, one-to-one clients at any one time because

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you've got a lot going on.

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So it's important to you to be discerning about who

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it is that you take on.

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And when you communicate that and you almost

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say to somebody, look, we're in the business of

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helping people helpers.

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Why is it that you should be on this program?

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Why is it that you and I should do one-to-one work?

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it makes people really have to articulate the work

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that they wanna do with you, which is essentially

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what we're all getting at when we talk about coaching

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someone through a sale.

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So I want us to end up on, we have a couple of

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questions here, one from Anya and one from Nicola.

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So I hope you're both still here, uh, to hear them live.

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Uh, and to accept or discard as you see fit.

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Um, so let's start off with Anya's question.

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Anya's asking.

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So what if you are offering more of a process than

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a specific outcome?

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And she says, this makes confidence trickier as

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you don't know what will arise for your client.

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Well, I think that you don't necessarily have to know

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the end for the client, but you can articulate the

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value of where you start, and then you can explain

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the process that follows.

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And by simply explaining, well, we start our work here

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and we think about and we do and we consider and we act

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on these things, some of the places that that could end

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up are, and then you could say the thoughts, feelings,

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or insights that people may get to through that work.

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And then you can explain, but actually it's

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different for every person.

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So I don't sort of claim that I'm gonna get you

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to this because that, that would be too linear.

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But even if you just explain the starting point and some

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of the things that happen during the process, that can

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still communicate the value, uh, to the, to the client.

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So I think it's, it's really understanding about if a

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client comes to you, how do they articulate where they

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think they're gonna end up?

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So if, if, if what they want to do is sleep better, for

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example, then you need to articulate how you are gonna

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help them work through that, and if it's even possible

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to get them to that point.

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But a lot of the work in articulating the value is

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helping the client understand either why their expectations

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are perfectly matched with what you do, way too high

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for the budget or time, or.

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They can achieve, or way too low and therefore you

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need to refer 'em to someone else or something else.

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I think if you look at anyone in the eye and you say,

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you know I can't guarantee outcomes and thank God I'm

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not gonna try, because I know that you wouldn't trust me

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the minute I told you anything was gonna definitely gonna

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happen, because you're an intelligent human being and

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you know that no one other than God if there is such a

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thing, could possibly work out what might come for you.

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And I'm not gonna patronize you by suggesting that you

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are so stupid that you have not worked it out yourself.

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Uh, so we're gonna, you know, what people need is to be

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seen, heard, understood, and loved, and not to feel alone.

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And to be able to speak to those things, uh, is more

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powerful than to be able to articulate a clear outcome.

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And if you can communicate that in talking about

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your approach, people will understand the value

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without needing to know where they're gonna end up.

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I'm gonna, there's, give you a bit of conflicting

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opinions on this.

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I think Anya people love to know that there's an outcome.

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It's much easier to buy something when you

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have a clear outcome.

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Or they're buying something else.

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And some people are buying a process.

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They're buying a journey.

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They're buying time to spend with someone else.

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They're not necessarily wanting an outcome.

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And maybe those are your customers.

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So there's something here about the clarity of

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who you wanna work with and what they're buying.

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And then there's another thing here that's popping

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up is around responsibility.

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Who's responsible for the outcome?

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Just you or also the client.

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Because if you are just building a brick wall,

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then you're responsible for the brick wall.

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But if you are designing something that's going to

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appeal to their aesthetic sensibilities, then they're

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responsible to be clear about what those accessibilities

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are, as well as you being able to interpret them.

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And if it's a coaching engagement or like Simon's

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saying, to be able to sleep better, well, if you watch

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Netflix until midnight after I've told you to have better

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sleep hygiene, I'm not gonna be able to help you.

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So there's something here around.

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Responsibility, agreeing the roles of responsibility,

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but also agreeing what are they buying?

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Are they definitely buying an outcome or are

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they buying a process?

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And it's perfectly fine, I think, to sell a process.

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Cool.

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The last one here is, Nicola.

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Any thoughts on pricing for friends or family and

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staying with the worth of what you are offering while

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steering clear of mates rates?

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Oh my God.

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A hundred percent.

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Quadruple the price for family and friends.

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I was gonna say.

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Nightmare.

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Don't go there.

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My Answer is gonna be along the same lines of, uh,

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family and friends make the worst customers every single

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time, all days of the week.

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Not there's anything wrong with them being your

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friends and your family, but there's a reason that

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they're your friends and your family and it's 'cause

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they're not your customers.

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There is obviously overlap, but I personally would

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always put them towards the back of the queue

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if you see what I mean.

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There are obviously ways in which you can help friends and

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family that don't exert lots of time and effort for you.

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So for example, I run Aweber Design Agency.

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My dad has a domain name.

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I don't charge him to renew his domain name because

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it costs me a few pounds.

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It's a way I can help.

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It's not like you can never work with friends or family.

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But if my dad was to say, well, could you

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build me a whole website?

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I'd be like, no, absolutely not.

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Because it, it, it's just not how that relationship works.

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We, we can't have a client relationship.

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I can't, I can't be impartial.

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We're just gonna wind each other up to the point

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where it's just not, it, it, to me it doesn't,

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it, it, it never works.

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And the second point I will add' is, that by

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default I would always resist giving any form of

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discount if you can avoid it.

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Because discounts are only benefiting, they're

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only reducing your ability to deliver value.

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Um, if someone is relying on a discount to make the value

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worthwhile, then the question you should be asking is,

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well, what bit of the value are you gonna take away?

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So if someone says, well, can you do it cheaper?

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It's like, well, yeah, I can do it cheaper.

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Which bit don't you want me to do?

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To?

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Which they'll always say, oh, well I, I want

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you to do all of it.

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You're like, great.

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So that's the price for doing all of it.

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So we can go cheaper, but we have to not do something.

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That's one way of thinking, but that's a

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whole, that's another episode is discounting.

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But generally, my advice across the board is

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don't do discounts.

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And, um, I would put the time and energy you would spend

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to, working with friends and family into finding

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other clients personally.

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Um, and uh, maybe find someone else who you can

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refer friends and family to, in order that they get

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what they're after and they are helped and supported and

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loved, but maybe not by you.

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I'd like to say it's all about for me, um, how well

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you can set boundaries.

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And it's also how well you can deal with conflict,

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because that's what it comes down to in the end, whether

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they're a family, a friend, or a difficult customer.

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It's about how do you negotiate challenges

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when they're not getting what they want?

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And I think I accept when you are working with family, it's

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gonna be harder because you then have to spend time with

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them after not being able to get them what they want for

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the price that they want.

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And this is for me, is then having a very clear

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conversation at the beginning of relationship.

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And also what is the complexity of what

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it is you're gonna be doing for them.

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Because I would have no qualms selling my father a

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domain name and telling them that's the price you gotta,

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if you want me to do it, that's how much it costs.

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But if it's, um, doing something more intricate and

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complicated that will involve maybe a bit more time and,

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um, significance in terms of the impact that it'll have

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on their lives should it not go well, then that's, I

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think, something to consider when you are starting the

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relationship and having some clear boundaries around that.

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And also clear considerations of what it means for you to

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then deal with the aftermath.

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Thank you everyone for bearing with us.

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Uh, hope you've found something useful and

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interesting in here.

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Uh, hope you've got a new perspective on having a

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pricing philosophy and what it means for your

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confidence, uh, and also the kinds of connections you can

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make with your customers.

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If any of this or anything that you have heard over the

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past six seasons of Happy Pricing, anything that, um,

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Ben and I have said that is useful and you would look to

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like to dive deeper, If you are really wanting to get more

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confidence with your pricing and you don't have the time to

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do it yourself, but you know, if you do that, you're gonna

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get paid better and more, you'll be able to build a more

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sustainable and effortless business, if that is something

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you enjoy or something that appeals, then yes, please look

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into the happy pricing course.

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We'll be starting the next cohort in late September.

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So I would, uh, encourage you to investigate now

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before it's too late.

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And so until, well, maybe Ben will do this instead

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of me with, with Frances and Simon and whoever else

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wants to be his playmate next week, uh, until the

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next time we speak, um, have a good rest of your week.

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Thank you very much Frances, and thank you

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very Simon for joining us.

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