Episode 29
What are you selling and what are your customers buying?
There’s a mismatch between what people are selling and what customers are actually buying. People focus on Facebook ads and leads, rather than on creating conversations.
Simon and Frances, co-founders of the Better Bolder Braver community, help coaches who feel overwhelmed or disconnected from marketing advice. They use the five levels of awareness to help people understand their journey when buying something or joining a community.
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Transcript
No, this is like, I'm live, I'm just, I'm mumbling talk about freeform listening experience and Say We're going live.
Ben:We're going live.
Ben:You're saying we're going live, live.
Carlos:Welcome, everyone for this, uh, third episode in our fifth season.
Carlos:uh, today, um, we are gonna be focusing on this idea of what, uh, what are you selling?
Carlos:uh, and what your customers are actually buying.
Carlos:And somehow, sometimes, a lot of the time we can have this mismatch.
Carlos:Mismatch.
Carlos:You know, we, we are kind of so focused on the things that we are trying to create and the features and the processes and the courses, et cetera, et cetera.
Carlos:And we're not really speaking to what actually our customers want, and how not doing that can make it harder for us to price well.
Carlos:Uh, we're joined by, uh, Frances and Simon, co-founders of the Better Bolder Braver community, and I'll get them to introduce a bit more about what that community is about, uh, and who they're helping.
Carlos:I'm gonna talk to their experiences in terms of how people have approached them, what they've asked them for, and what they're trying to sell.
Carlos:Uh, Ben's gonna give his wisdom around some of the principles that we've been using on the Happy Pricing course and how we could apply.
Carlos:To this, to their situation.
Carlos:And hopefully help you, the listener, understand a bit more how to use these ideas in your own businesses.
Carlos:Uh, and I'd also like to bring into this, uh, the idea of the Satir change model that our beautiful friend Lana Jelenjev, who is, uh, one of our co-coach on the Vision 2020 program, which just finished yesterday, uh, she introduced it to us, uh, and helps us tell the story of the journey of transformation, uh, for a customer.
Carlos:And I think it's particularly relevant for people who are coaches, because there is that, uh, it, it speaks very much, I think, closely to that journey.
Carlos:So lots to pack in.
Carlos:Um, but before we kick off, um, I thought we'd just say a little brief.
Carlos:Hello.
Carlos:We did a bit of a check in, but let's, let's, let's do it again for the listeners to share, share the energy that we are bringing to this space.
Carlos:Um, Ben, why don't you say hello and, and, and check in with us.
Ben:Greetings, I will check in concisely and to the point in the theme of today.
Ben:Uh, actually I'm now feeling a little bit calmer.
Ben:Having arrived and checked in, I've def my morning has felt like I was sort of, uh, start everything.
Ben:I was sort of a little bit, two steps behind the curve.
Ben:Um, but children are at school.
Ben:Actually quite a kind, a calm walk back from school.
Ben:Birds are singing sun sort of shin.
Ben:And then arrive here.
Ben:So now I feel like I've arrived.
Ben:So I guess that's a good thing.
Carlos:Welcome.
Carlos:Thank you very much, Ben.
Carlos:Simon, how are you?
Simon:Uh, yeah.
Simon:Good feeling.
Simon:Uh, yeah.
Simon:Pretty relaxed this morning, actually, after the closing ceremony of the vision 2020 yesterday.
Simon:Yeah, it was really nourishing in many ways.
Simon:It was just, yeah, it was just a really good evening of sort of self-reflection and looking forward and backwards and the experience and stuff.
Simon:So, yeah, for me it's been, yeah, I've woken up, uh, yeah, in a really, really good place.
Carlos:Thank you, Simon.
Carlos:How are you doing, frances?
Frances:I'm good, thanks.
Frances:I've been up since I think 5:30, and so far I've fed everyone and, uh, project managed some hoovering.
Frances:Done a workout.
Frances:I haven't actually eaten myself, but that's fine.
Frances:Um, and I've got a day of childcare ahead of me.
Frances:Um, uh, so this is an absolutely welcome, delightful indulgence, first thing in the morning.
Frances:Thank you for having me.
Carlos:Thank you, Frances.
Carlos:I appreciate you.
Carlos:Um, yes.
Carlos:Taking some time to join us.
Carlos:Um, I am, yeah.
Carlos:I'm feeling quite.
Carlos:Um, feeling, yeah, feeling a lot of love.
Carlos:Uh, yesterday's session, uh, final closing ceremony.
Carlos:Vision 2020 was a bit sad, but also, um, relieved.
Carlos:, like, it's done.
Carlos:Me and Lorin can take a break.
Carlos:Um, but it's, yeah, it, it was lovely to, to have that experience together.
Carlos:And I think we're gonna maybe talk to a bit about that, cuz we're gonna be talking about good feelings and solutions at some point in this conversation.
Carlos:So before we go get to that, what would be useful is, one of you, Simon or Frances, maybe, just to give us a bit of an intro into your community, who you're trying to help and how you're doing it.
Simon:So we created a better, bolder, brave.
Simon:, um, at the beginning of last year actually, where we, me and Frances met through the Happy Startup School, and decided we were on a very similar journey, um, and that was to work with coaches who wanted to essentially work on their marketing, but were feeling either disillusioned, overwhelmed, or just completely disconnected from marketing advice that's out there.
Simon:So, Wanted to create a, a sort of training mentoring space, but we weren't sure how that shape was gonna work.
Simon:And then what we realized very quickly was actually community was the answer to that.
Simon:So in creating a community, we could then gather the people who were interested and then work through what it was we wanted to sort of pass on in terms of teaching knowledge and an experience.
Simon:So that's what we've created in Better Bolder Braver.
Simon:It's a community of coaches who are collectively working on their marketing, on their business and on themselves, and have come together with us to join a, a co a course that we run, but also lots of events and, I guess are sort of, um, the fire that draws people in to our community is that it's just for coaches.
Simon:So it's not trying to be all things to all people.
Simon:We've, we've kind of we're welcoming in coaches and people helpers, for those who are still around the coaching name, shall we say, and all of that advice is based on them and their clients.
Frances:I'm always delighted every time I listen to Simon do the pitch for our community because he's such a pro at it, so there's not very much to add.
Frances:One thing I, I talk about often though is, is that a, a kind of additional value add, if you like, is where people are getting a lot of juicy tools, techniques, and geek-outery about how to do marketing, one of the things that we are very proud of that we do, which we haven't yet seen anyone really getting anywhere else in terms of marketing support, is space, a safe space to reflect on how the whole thing is making you feel.
Frances:So we, we check in with people, often, implicitly, explicitly, uh, to remind them that they're human beings.
Frances:And that this whole process of putting yourself out there, pricing yourself, marketing yourself and having to iterate if you realize what you are doing is not serving you, is completely okay, and that we're all in it together.
Frances:Uh, so that's, that's a, a very important part of the community for us as well.
Carlos:So just to give a bit of context for people as to why this conversation came about, um, we, le Ben and I got organized for once and tried to plan out what is it we're gonna be talking about, um, over the next few weeks.
Carlos:And, and one of the things was this idea of like, what we're selling and what customers are actually buying.
Carlos:And then I had a conversation with Simon, um, about, yeah, some of his, his kind of, the conversations he's had with his customers about, um, the things they ask him in terms of, or what is it I'm gonna get out of this?
Carlos:And also some of the, kind of the things that other people in your space are selling.
Carlos:And so the two things that sprang to mind was this, you know, the conversation we had about leads and how many leads I'm gonna get, and then also this thing about facebook and using Facebook and how to use Facebook.
Carlos:So, Simon, if you want, if you remember that conversation, whether you want to elaborate more, what came up for you when we were talking and what, why you were interested in coming on and chatting about it today.
Simon:So we've had several conversations with coaches who are interested in joining our community and sometimes they, they sort of send us.
Simon:Weird and wonderful questions before they join.
Simon:And, um, a couple of, um, ones that stood out, we've had a couple of people saying, well, how will this teach me of how to use Facebook ads?
Simon:And I'm like, wow, that's a, that's incredibly specific.
Simon:and it's a real tactic and it's obviously something you feel is lacking, but at, at no point in any of our marketing or anywhere on the website we said anything about teaching you how to use Facebook ads, um, in fact, even spending five to 10 minutes with me, you'll very quickly realize that it's very, very low down my list of marketing tools, so it kind of felt like someone had just stumbled across it, read the headline, dropped us an email, and it was, it, it just sort of, you know, little like, oh, it's interesting.
Simon:I noticed that.
Simon:And then we had another person say, if I join your community, how many leads will I get?
Simon:It's like, Ooh, that's another very curious and specific question.
Simon:Again, really missing the point, but also made me realize, because we've been on the, me and Frances been on the Vision 2020, we've been working with Lana through the Satir change model, and in that model there's that moment where someone flips between, this is a real problem to, I'm just falling down into chaos.
Simon:And it's that, it's that moment where I think those people were when they messaged us.
Simon:And it's that moment where someone's like, I'm feeling really scared about what lies ahead.
Simon:I don't know what is gonna happen.
Simon:Everything I've reached for seems to have a number attached to it.
Simon:And everyone's telling me that I should be getting more leads and everyone's telling me I should be using Facebook ads and I should be, you know, growing an amazing Instagram following and posting three times a day and all this other marketing bullshit that's out there.
Simon:And it's like they've reached for all that, and then what they do is they take all of those preconceptions and try and squidge it and apply it to whatever they're looking at.
Simon:So that might be, for example, our coaching community.
Simon:It could be the Facebook ads, uh, school, that Facebook run.
Simon:It could be any number of marketing schools out there.
Simon:And it kind of immediately made, just made me think, this is really interesting because, it that we are not talking enough about what you're gonna get out of this?
Simon:Or is it just that people are coming with their preconceptions and, and it just made me think about do we need to offer more to speak to those preconceptions that people may have, and then maybe gently sort of bring them around the idea that perhaps this isn't exactly what's gonna serve them best at the moment, and they might like to consider something else.
Simon:And then the conflict in me is like, yeah, but am I just chasing the wrong leads?
Simon:Am I therefore just chasing people who aren't ready to buy, and is that distracting from looking after the people who've already purchased?
Simon:And is it distracting me from making more content and energy towards those people who are ready to buy?
Frances:Yeah, I just mentioned, um, our concept of levels.
Frances:Awareness, which was Simon's brainchild.
Frances:Uh, but we use it a lot.
Frances:Um, we talk about the levels of consciousness that people are bringing to the situation when they're, uh, potentially gonna buy as it were.
Frances:And we've also identified that people get turned on by different transitions from one level to another.
Frances:So our five levels of consciousness, or five levels of awareness are problem unaware, problem aware, solution unaware, solution aware, and most aware.
Frances:And for example, I love working with people in the transitionary place that is between problem unaware and problem aware.
Frances:Simon really likes, uh, working with people between problem aware and solution unaware, and you know, it's interesting to consider be I, my invitation would be to you and Ben to think about like, where, where are you most turned on which transition?
Frances:And so what Simon's talking about is at what point do people engage in our community and what do they think is, uh, why they're buying?
Frances:And the bit that I find really fascinating is the bit where, um, Simon says people kind of realize that what they think they're buying is not necessarily what they need kind of thing.
Frances:And uh, for example, there's a member of our community, and we talked a little bit about it yesterday morning on our, on our Marketing Masterclass, actually it was Monday, uh, with Vics Anderton about, do we or do we not want to coach people who have exactly the same problems or challenges as us?
Frances:And that boils down to how well are we, uh, managing those challenges ourselves and how much does it turn us on to manage them ourselves and simultaneously help others?
Frances:And a lot of that's around safety and boundaries and, uh, your own personal experience.
Frances:And Vix for example, is loving working with people with perfectionism concerns.
Frances:And there's someone in our community who has realized recently That they've been wanting very much to help people with problems that they have an experience with themselves and actually it's far too triggering for them right now.
Frances:So they've, they came to our community with a sense of who their ideal client was.
Frances:They were all ready to build a product, package it, price it, and sell it.
Frances:But it, it turns out, it's far too triggering for them.
Frances:And they've realized that, and that in the work that they're doing with us in the community.
Frances:So they have kind of gone back to, uh, problem aware again, and they kind of have to build again, and they need to be held in that space.
Frances:So what we try and do is, is really help people think about what they think they're buying from us and how we can really help them, and that, and that will really influence the sustainability of their businesses as coaches and also their mental health as human beings.
Carlos:I think one aspect that sprung up for me was this idea of product founder fit.
Carlos:It's like what you are making, not only does it, you know, in Startup terms as products, uh, product market fit is the thing that you making something people will buy.
Carlos:But then there's also is the thing that you're doing actually something you, you can.
Carlos:Is something that aligns with where you're at energetically and something that you're passionate about.
Carlos:And that's an interesting aspect of this.
Carlos:I wanted to narrow down maybe more about this, you know, these, you talked about the different levels of consciousness, we, uh.
Carlos:For those of you who are not aware about the Satir change model, it's pretty hard to describe unless you see little picture.
Carlos:But with just this different stages of the journey and, and the way I'm interpreting in it is I think it's easier to put a number on the value that you can offer those different stages?
Carlos:depend, well, at certain stages I think it's easier to put a value on the number because there's something more tangible there or you can relate to it more.
Carlos:So, I dunno, I'm gonna pass over to Ben here with that in terms of like when you're getting from problem unaware to problem aware, how much people would consider that valuable and pay for versus finding a solution and being on that other path of like being, you know, problem aware to solution aware.
Ben:So I guess one question I'd ask, what's an example of, uh, when, when you say problem, what, what, what's, uh, what are examples of problems that you kind of see or think about in that category?
Ben:Whether I'm aware or unaware?
Simon:So a problem is it's, it is, I guess maybe a, sorry, loaded word that we use, but it, it essentially describes the situation, the issue, the feeling or the problem that someone has in their day-to-day life, but they're not in and, and in the unaware stage, they are just unaware of it.
Simon:It's just something they're living with at the moment.
Simon:So when they're unaware, it's just their lived experience.
Simon:And then when they become problem aware, they experience something and that makes them go, Ooh, I didn't know that.
Simon:That wasn't what, that, that wasn't my perception of that experience.
Simon:So it could be someone says, Hey, do you know if you're not sleeping very well, that could be cuz you're stressed.
Simon:You're like, I did not know that.
Simon:And then you'd be like, oh, okay.
Simon:Yeah, that's cool.
Simon:And it's that moment where you move from living with it and just thinking everybody's doing it to that moment where you're like, Ooh, there's a, there's something that's clicked in my head here that makes me realize that this isn't necessarily something that everybody's experiencing or that I should be experiencing slash want to experience.
Ben:And so do you see that that phase, that problem unaware is a problem where this is the, the, as the domain of your marketing?
Simon:So that's very much what we do in terms of the social marketing.
Simon:Because it's that thumb scroll across a screen length of, you know, bad streak, bad sleep can be caused by stress for, hang on a minute, it's, it's a scroll stopper.
Simon:That's basically what it is.
Simon:It's that I didn't know that.
Simon:And that's all you need to do at that stage is just switch someone's perspective on it, or get them thinking about it in a different way of join two dots.
Carlos:For instance, I'm think consider myself coach, who wants to get more customers.
Carlos:I am aware of a problem.
Carlos:The problem is I'm not getting on customers.
Carlos:It's like I'm sat here and nothing's coming to me.
Carlos:That is a massive problem.
Carlos:But what I'm unaware of is the problem, like when I do go out and try and market, it scares the crap.
Carlos:And I get stuck and I got imposter syndrome and uh, my energy drops and I don't wanna do it.
Carlos:But I'm not, I don't know, didn't realize that was the problem.
Carlos:I thought the problem was for some reason my link, you know, my Facebook campaign isn't working, or my social media sort of marketing is just shit.
Carlos:It's like, no, actually I need to realize the core of this is something else.
Frances:So we, um, practice something, uh, that kind of sits behind something called the Ethical Move, which is a, a lovely organization within the marketing community, global marketing community that speaks to kind of ethical marketing.
Frances:And, for example, the problem unaware, problem aware transition can be a place that you know if you are, if, if someone is not practice, practicing ethical marketing is, is the opportunity for, um, taking advantage of people, sort of abusing good nature, abusing vulnerability, and we're very hot on how to not do that.
Frances:Um, and a much more gentle, compassionate, um, empathetic, human led approach to helping people in that transition between problem on where to problem, where.
Frances:So when Simon talks about sort of social media communication and we support our coaches in thinking about how they can, speak to people who might be in the transition between problem unaware to problem aware, a lot of it is around that kind of compassion piece.
Frances:Which is linked to the really exciting bit that's something I wanna say in reflection of what you just said, Carlos.
Frances:So people who feel shame, um, and anxiety and vulnerability when it comes to doing marketing, can useful, do work on, on, on getting themselves much more confident and proud about what they're doing and the service that they're offering, and therefore the gift that they're giving.
Frances:And when you start to be a lot more comfortable about the way in which you are communicating, um, because you feel it's ethical, you feel it's clear, you know it's speaking to, um, real problems and you know, and feel confident that you've got a solution that can help people, suddenly you go from this fear of standing on a soapbox, vomiting your shit at everyone, to knowing that what you are doing is serving someone and serving a a greater good for the world.
Frances:And when we get people to that place of confidence and pride and excitement.
Frances:It, it switches those feelings that you're talking to about just rabbit in the headlights anxiety about putting your thing out there or pri you know, it completely changes the pricing conversation because you suddenly are showing up with real clarity about the outcome, outcome that you're serving, why it's you that should be doing this and you appreciate that.
Frances:You know, um, we talk about the hero and the guide.
Frances:The hero is the person that you're talking to and working with, not you.
Frances:And it, it is so amazing when you see people getting to a place of real excitement about doing their marketing.
Frances:We talk about marketing as another effing self-growth tool.
Frances:Because in doing marketing, in talking about marketing, think about marketing with Simon and myself, what you are actually doing is getting to a place of real clarity and conviction about why you are doing this thing for the people that you wanna serve.
Ben:So I, I'm kind of really curious about, like, the thing you were talking about, Simon, the, those kind of fir those questions which sort of come to you, like the how many leads the, then it's not teaching me that, and then how that kind of links to your, the, the kind of, the problem I'm unaware, um, that sort of journey because in a sense what the, uh, what your perspective clients are sort of doing.
Ben:They're, they're signaling, aren't they?
Ben:They're signaling that something is wrong, but they don't know what the thing is.
Ben:They don't know what's wrong.
Ben:They know that something is, so they're holding onto this idea, you know, looking around, looking around, looking around, oh, maybe it's this, maybe it's Facebook ads.
Ben:Oh, maybe it's, I don't have enough leads.
Ben:Which of course is a thing that people feel kind of viscerally and it feels like a very tangible thing.
Ben:I don't have enough work.
Ben:Um, and so they are looking for certainty, so they kind of hold onto, something.
Ben:Uh, and whether that is the, the kind of root of the problem or not, they're holding onto it because whenever we are trying to buy anything, what we're trying to, you know, really what you are sort of talking about with the kind of problem, unaware and, and kind of problem aware, we are looking to just, we are looking to make things surer, we're looking to make things kind of clearer.
Ben:We're looking to make kind of problems go away.
Ben:But of course we may not always know what the problem is that we are looking to go away as you've, you've kind of well articulated.
Ben:And so in a sense, kind of part of the journey, whether of, you know, the journey from a, a kind of marketing to selling journey or a, a kind of selling to earning journey is a journey about, you know, it's a kind of dance, isn't it?
Ben:A little bit.
Ben:And so it's about kind of me understanding where you are in terms of, what the problem is or how you articulate the problem.
Ben:Because like you, you kind of, um, you, you kind of alluded to the kind of flavor, the nature of that problem can vary hugely for different people.
Ben:They may all hold onto the same thing, which is, I haven't got enough leads or, but I need to learn about Facebook ads.
Ben:But of course the underlying kind of bubbling cause of that comes in all of the different kind of flavors of sort of human life.
Ben:And so in a sense there, there is a kind of sort of dance going on and it's about kind of me understanding where you are and you understanding where I am.
Ben:And I think what the other thing you were talking about, which is a really interesting point, is, you know, are these people ready to buy?
Ben:Am I over-investing because they're not actually at a place where they are, or are they actually very, very ready to buy?
Ben:They just don't quite understand the, the kind of root into the equation.
Ben:And of course this is.
Ben:We don't know, do we?
Ben:We don't know until we sort of explore these things, uh, a little bit.
Ben:I think one of the things that's kind of interesting, I think, which kind of overlaps with what, uh, Carlos and I tend to talk about and sort of teach on the course, which is very much a kind of aligned with, with where you are.
Ben:This, you know, this, this kind of problem, unaware, problem aware thing.
Ben:People of course, are buying something because they want something to change.
Ben:So whether it's for your coaches, for your coaches clients, they're all buying those because they want something else to change.
Ben:They're not buying coaching, they're buying something else, changing in their life.
Ben:And you know, they're wanting a, a kind of problem to go away.
Ben:So they're buying a, a sort of solution and whether that, whatever that problem might relate to or they're looking for some sort of kind of positive feeling, some sort of good feeling..
Ben:Uh, and the extent to which I think, you know, one understands those underlying drivers is a real clear pointer as to the how valuable or at least understanding how valuable your work is going to be.
Ben:Uh, and so I think, you know, in that kind of problem, underwear, problem aware kind of point, that is the kind of the sort of source material for really sort of exploring kind of pricing.
Ben:And the other thing which I think was interesting when I, we was kind of first sort of mentioned we were, we were talking about this is, you know, the, the whole kind of emotional, rational kind of dance, which is going on in the kind of heart mind of your customer.
Ben:Because you know, when we kind of offer those things out, as you kind of mentioned earlier, what we're really looking for is we're looking for certainty.
Ben:We're looking for that story that our rational mind can tell us that this is safe, this is going to do the thing that I want it to do.
Ben:But of course, the thing that we know is actually we decide whenever we do something underneath that is an emotional driver.
Ben:So we actually kind of, we make the decision to act emotionally, we then justify it rationally.
Ben:And so I think, you know, what really kind of feels is that where people are kind of asking those questions, which feel very kind of, sort of specific, I think, you know, you certainly in, in kind of my experience so that you kind of mentioned this too.
Ben:Really what that means is they're not yet trusting it, feeling it fully kind of emotionally.
Ben:So just trying to kind of make it feel safer.
Ben:So just trying to make it kind of feel more secure.
Ben:And in, and in that sense of course, they're not quite ready to buy.
Ben:But I think this, this kind of question does come up sort of, uh, sort of time and time again.
Ben:And, and I think actually what you kind of breeze through in your introductory thing, like this whole idea that Facebook's way down on the list of things that I would do is tremendously reassuring, isn't it?
Ben:Because it's honest, it's clear, it's open, and actually those are the things which then reassure people.
Ben:And so then it's like, oh, I can put down this thing around Facebook ads.
Ben:And, you know, I can, I can safely step into this space because I know I get to, you know, I'm, I'm kind of feeling something else.
Ben:A some other problem is being kind of met or some other need is being met.
Ben:So I'm getting those kind of feelings, those kind of feelings, acknowledged those needs met, those, those, uh, those kind of good feelings that I'm after, which allows me to kind of put down those kind of external signals that it's about this, that or the other.
Ben:And then you are in a kind of place, of course, where you can start to kind of explore it, sort of symbiotically.
Ben:And there you can start to explore kind of pricing in a kind of much richer way.
Ben:Because you are, you are, you kind of, you've created the safety where they can put down that idea of, well, how many leads am I gonna get?
Ben:Which of course is what everyone's concerned about, but it's like, no, we come to that and it's like honesty, isn't it?
Ben:Which basically opens the door for somebody to be able to put that down.
Carlos:What's running through my mind at the moment is this, you talk about problem aware, solution aware, and that's, you know, that feels like a very simple journey.
Carlos:Like, okay, now I know how to resolve this issue that I've got.
Carlos:But I felt the need to talk about is a value aware.
Carlos:And when I talk about value, I'm really talking about pointing to a number.
Carlos:Cuz ultimately this is what we're talking about.
Carlos:It's like, what is the number that we put on this stuff so that people say, yes, I will pay that because it makes sense?
Carlos:And so it doesn't matter how amazing the solution is, the amount of money someone will pay you has much more to do with them than necessarily the solution.
Carlos:And so, um, you know, had conversations with Frances about this cuz she was a bit, ugh, you know, you know, we should be able to put one price because that's price for everyone, which is, you know, at some, a certain level, yes.
Carlos:But if someone goes from no basically income to maybe £500 a month, you know, there's a big change there, but also there, starting from a point of like, I've got no money.
Carlos:What am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna spend 500 quid on potentially getting 500 quid a month?
Carlos:That's a challenging story to tell.
Carlos:And then you might getting someone from two grand a month to five grand a month, and it's like, okay, what is the, there's a price, there is a value, a real specific number.
Carlos:And Ben talks to, in the course about it, there's an anchor, very clear anchor that you can use to define that.
Carlos:And then the third thing, which I think is a bit more challenging, particularly if you're more purpose driven and like with you guys, you, you care a lot, there's the emotional change for someone and how, how do you put a number on that?
Carlos:What does that actually mean to someone?
Carlos:Because whether they're going from zero to 500 or two grand to five grand, I would also challenge like, well, one has, oh, I can't put a number on that cause, but ultimately, and we talk about the whole good feelings and solution that could be incredibly valuable, that could be a lifetime of value.
Carlos:Ben talks about this, and of course it's like, you might, us as suppliers might benefit from the value once from the transaction, but the customer might benefit from the rest of their lives from that.
Carlos:And how that, if you tell the story, right, and again, telling the story sounds a bit, you know, manipulative, but at the same time, if they understand that and they believe that, and they're empowered to suddenly change the way they work for the rest of their lives, how much is that worth for people?
Carlos:And so I just wanted to raise the, there's a different elements of this that would all, and ultimately what we're trying to do with the happy pricing point to a number, how can we point to a number that satisfies us as suppliers and makes and satisfies the customers?
Carlos:Someone who, who's, who's paying the money, as opposed to just getting a, you know, skirting around this whole idea like, yeah, it's about value, but actually I, I dunno, I'm bit uncomfortable putting that number to it and how much that's also to do with us and our own relationship to money.
Frances:As somebody who's been on the Happy Pricing course, , what I thought was fabulous about it, yes, Simon and I might have slightly, I think there's a very healthy conversation between Simon, myself, you guys, which I'm really looking forward to continuing, uh, which feels to be around the sort of, do you need to like entertain the idea that you might have separate prices for different people or, you know, in the spirit of how I feel about this, how, how healthy is it for you as the seller to have a price that you feel comfortable going into sales conversations with so that you can kind of, for ba you know, boundaries sake for yourself and intentions sake?
Frances:What I found super helpful about the course was the idea of coming up with a set of creative questions to go into sales conversations.
Frances:And we are really lucky because who we work with are coaches.
Frances:So coaches are filled with amazing coaching questions that they can bring into into, you know, pricing conversations, sales conversations, and, and they'll be in their happy place.
Frances:Because those questions are about, as you say, Carlos, getting the people buying their services to be clear about what the outcome is for them in working with that coach.
Frances:So if you've settled on a price before in your mind, or you are willing to be flexible in terms of the person that's coming to that conversation with you, doesn't matter.
Frances:I think the bit that I get really excited about is what, what questions can you use that serve the meta purpose of demonstrating your skills as a coach, using the pricing conversation, using the sales conversation to show somebody how brilliant you are as a coach and how it serves the purpose that way, as well as actually closing the deal.
Ben:One of the things you're saying in there I think is hugely important that actually, and this comes up on the course time and time again, particularly for coaches, uh, and particularly for, you know, lots of people in, you know, your community, Carlos, the these people, you are people you know, with unbelievable kind of skills to kind of explore what people's, uh, kind of motivations are, what's kind of bubbling below the surface, because that's where the real kind of, you know, rich and exciting.
Ben:Kind of, sort of source material is for all of these kind of conversations, whether it's the conversations of work, whether it's the conversations of marketing, whether it's the conversations of setting.
Ben:You know, it's all of that kind of rich material, which is bubbling under the surface, which is where there's kind of really exciting kind of opportunity.
Ben:And I use the word opportunity in a kind of positive sense, not in a, you know, for something me to, for me to kind of leap on.
Ben:But you know, the, the kind of opportunity for work together.
Ben:And coaches have all of those skills, all of that ability.
Ben:And you know, to kind of, uh, pick up on the idea that you kind of mentioned Frances, this idea that, you know, marketing is a personal development journey, you know, so is being an entrepreneur, so is running your own thing, so is selling, so is pricing.
Ben:And actually the opportunity to kind of explore these things is, is kind of where there is, you know, there, you know where, where there is, oh, kind of real goodness.
Ben:And the coaches do have that.
Ben:So I kind of just sort of reiterate that point actually using the skills that we naturally have.
Ben:In fact, part of the reason I need to get off the call soon is I'm meeting somebody else and she is actually a journalist, and she runs an awards thing and I, I was talking to her about, you know, the same sort of thing she was saying, But I'm not a salesperson.
Ben:I don't like sort of doing all of that.
Ben:And so people come with these ideas that selling is a certain thing that marketing's a certain thing, that asking for money is not something that I do.
Ben:You know, it's what state agents do or whatever it is that we might sort of say.
Ben:But actually, in her ability as a journalist, as is with the coaches.
Ben:She has an ability to understand the importance of stories.
Ben:She knows how to ans ask questions.
Ben:She knows how to sort of see.
Ben:And I think it's about helping people tap into the skills that they innately have to kind of open things up.
Ben:And I think that is where the kind of opportunity is.
Ben:And I think that's clearly what you know you guys are doing with your community.
Simon:The very beginning of Daniel Pink's book To Sell is Human is really interesting because what he's saying is everybody is a salesperson and you're always selling all of the time.
Simon:And he's like, if you are a parent, you are one of the best salespeople there is because every night you are selling bedtime.
Simon:You know, you have to sell the concept of going to bed to your kids every day.
Simon:And it's like when you go into a coffee shop, you know, yes, you are being sold, but you are also you, you are always selling Oh, let's go this way, not that way.
Simon:You're always selling concepts and getting people to come with you and do things.
Simon:It's just selling.
Simon:So there's this fantastic, it's a really fascinating, uh, intro to the book.
Simon:If you've not read it, I would highly recommend it.
Simon:It's a really fascinating read that just completely blows your preconceptions of selling outta the water.
Simon:But it's, um, it's really good.
Simon:But what I guess came up for me when we were talking about the pricing and the number is, I think for us it's still finding that number.
Simon:Because our clients are dealing with one-to-one work, group work, courses, programs, and it's like, how can we say, we'll double your income?
Simon:How can we say, well, you know, 10 x your annual turnover?
Simon:It's like you just can't do that.
Simon:And the people that do do that are the marketing bullshit that everyone's so sick of.
Simon:So it's like, we intentionally don't put a number on it because we, we want to be the opposite of that.
Simon:But there is still an underlying need of saying, well, it's the certainty thing, and that's what people really want, isn't it?
Simon:So how can we provide certainty without necessarily having to anchor it to a specific number?
Simon:is there a way of doing, I'm sure there is a way of doing that, and that to us is the journey that we're on at the moment, I think is finding that, that number that makes sense and just is like, oh, yeah, okay, I get that.
Simon:I can, I can picture it, I can articulate it, I can relate to that.
Simon:And therefore that challenge extends to our coaches because they're in the emotional journey.
Simon:So for them it's like, I'm gonna make you feel 2.7 times happier than you are now.
Simon:It.
Simon:No coach is ever gonna be able to articulate that.
Simon:Um, obviously if you're a career coach, you might be able to say, well, I'll get you a job that is £10,000 more a year than you're on now.
Simon:The, there could be a specific number there, but ultimately it's like, how can you put that number on it without it feeling either in incorrect, irrelevant or insincere?
Simon:I think is the, that's the danger and the balance of that number for us.
Simon:And I think also just the, uh, well, the tiny little thought I had was one of the reasons we decided to put a fixed price on our course is purely for time.
Simon:Because if it's a fixed price, we don't have to discuss the price.
Simon:It's a take it or leave it situation.
Simon:It's like we've attached this value to this thing, and it's over here.
Simon:If you'd like it.
Simon:You can pick one up, you can take it to the checkout, and you will be the proud owner of the course.
Simon:And we don't have to discuss with people why they might want to do that.
Simon:We don't have to have that sales conversation.
Simon:So we've, we've settled on a price that fits that point where people are like, I'm ready to invest in that.
Simon:But, and, and I don't need to check with Simon, uh, Simon in Frances, what the price is.
Simon:And so the time we save there is the reason we've had that price.
Simon:Obviously, in the future we may decide to switch that to a pricing discussion, but then that price is gonna have to go up a lot to reflect the time that goes into having the, so it's cat and mouse, you know, there's always a chase to be had, but I wanted to sort of just put out there that was our thinking behind having the set price for a set thing ultimately.
Carlos:So there, there's a difference between here, between selling a product, uh, and a bespoke service.
Carlos:And if you were going to go and work with an organization and you're gonna help work with their sales team to essentially improve their, um, marketing, that would be a conversation about what value is gonna, you're gonna bring to them and, and that there's no fixed price.
Carlos:There you go.
Carlos:You know, well, there's no set price.
Carlos:You, you define the price with your customer.
Carlos:When you are selling a process of community, there's a product there, I would argue that, um, yes, you need to give a single price, but you need to then think about, that isn't necessarily a price that has to be set in stone.
Carlos:Cause you will learn over time whether you know, that relates to the value you're creating.
Simon:Yeah.
Carlos:And secondly, there's something around commitment.
Carlos:People will pay attention to what they pay for.
Carlos:So the more they pay, the more they will do the work.
Carlos:And so there's another aspect around this is like, um, there's not always just one price for everything.
Carlos:There will be potentially a price for different levels.
Carlos:And you do that with your courses.
Carlos:Like if you just join the community, it's one price.
Carlos:If you do the course, it's gonna be another price.
Carlos:If you do a program, it's gonna be another price.
Carlos:Because that is not only, uh, a question of the value that you create, but there's also, there's a another element that comes in.
Carlos:It's the commitment that someone needs to put into this.
Carlos:And if someone pays you just a little bit of money, it's less likely they're gonna be committed cuz they're less wedded to it.
Carlos:Yes, there are other things, factors involved in terms of ability to pay, but then that comes part of this thing that we're trying to teach on the course is then your decision to say yes or no to these people.
Carlos:If they can't afford you, then it's up to you to say, all right, well I will invest in you and you can work with me and you'll pay this much instead of that much.
Carlos:But also you'll be able to say, actually, for the sustainability energetically of my business and financially, I can only work with these people for now, and they have to pay this much money.
Carlos:And there's these kinds of people who will get this change in terms of a number in their business because that's the way we can work.
Carlos:And so that for me, that's where we, I, the way I think about it in terms of trying to hit price and say that's the price that we're gonna pay.
Carlos:While still you are gonna flex and move as you evolve as a business and you realize, actually, do you know how much value we create for these people?
Carlos:And for a community, I think for those of you who are running community to bear in mind, firstly, the idea of just grandfathering people in, you can raise your prices.
Carlos:It doesn't matter.
Carlos:It doesn't mean you have to raise the prices for everyone.
Carlos:You can say, okay, you were stuck with us since the beginning.
Carlos:You stayed with this price.
Carlos:But if you leave and come back, or if you are new, you pay this much because this is the amount of value you're getting.
Carlos:So you're not fixed to a price for the whole of your community, your product life.
Carlos:So I just wanted to end with that, just to give a bit of more freedom and flex when we think actually we have to be fixed.
Carlos:And for those of you who are interested in pricing, I think the finally message I want to give out, like we wanna remove the uncertainty and the ickiness around this whole pricing conversation, because that's the, the biggest challenge I think people face here.
Carlos:You can have the tactics and the strategies, but if you don't believe in the numbers that you are putting out there and you can't tell the story about it, then it doesn't matter what, what course you go on, you're not gonna really follow through.
Carlos:So I hope if you join us, we'll just give you a bit more of a friendly, like Frances and Simon are doing.
Carlos:Just take a, bring a more human aspect to this process rather than thinking it purely in terms of numbers and, and customers and just getting more, uh, how can we just make it feel better?
Carlos:Thank you very much, both of you and Ben.
Frances:Thank you.
Carlos:I feel like we could have gone on for a lot longer, but I'm conscious I want to keep these short so we're gonna have to get you guys back cause maybe there's a convers I think a more of a broader conversation of how we mark link marketing.
Carlos:And pricing and how those two dovetail, your favorite word there, Frances.
Frances:I, I love, I love something you and I have talked about, Carlos, which is almost like a quarterly audit of your services, uh, which is an invitation to think about can you put your pricing up?
Frances:And also are you getting really nice testimonials that would give you the confidence to do that, but also that you can then use in your content and we're all about recycling and, uh, repurposing things like testimonials and we are constantly getting people saying you should be charging more.
Frances:So, um, there's reasons why we are not that you have spoken to in terms of founding 50 members and the experience of having people in the community.
Frances:But sure, in due course we'll be looking back on all those testimonials and feedback things and going, yep okay, let's reprice cuz like you say, it's time to time to move up.
Frances:So I think what you are doing with Ben and what we are doing, uh, is, is lovely in combination and I look forward to people here being able to see how we might be able to work together.
Carlos:Brilliant.
