Episode 66

How to price products vs services

Tom Nixon is a coach who helps founders create purpose-driven companies. He's also the founder of Maptio, an online tool that helps fast-changing organisations visually map how their teams are organised and evolve.

And he's the author of Work With Source, a modern guide to business building. And he's also a money geek. He sells coaching services, and he sells a software product.

On today's episode, he shares his pricing approach to both.

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Transcript
Carlos:

This is episode nine 'cause Ben knows that perfectly of season seven.

Carlos:

and today, uh, we're gonna be talking about pricing approaches.

Carlos:

I think particularly for those of you who are coaches or consultants who, I was gonna say sell your time, but in essentially, you, you, you spend time in front of people helping them, but also from the perspective of selling products where you can help them without spending time in front of them.

Carlos:

And what that means in terms of how you find the right prices for those different offerings.

Carlos:

And we are joined by a good friend, Tom Nixon who does both of those things, and we want to hear more about his approach to that, in the hope that it inspires any of you who, uh, have that kind of blended approach to your business where you're trying to create value in different ways, which then means selling in different ways, which then also means pricing in different ways.

Tom:

I most love working with, I sometimes describe them as pioneering founders, so people who are really trying to do something new, do something that the world really needs at this time.

Tom:

so they're, yeah, they're an interesting bunch.

Tom:

They're kind of, they're creative and ambitious, but have a big heart and a big sense of trying to bring something into the world that the world needs or change something about the world to make it better somehow in a way that's meaningful to them.

Tom:

So those are the people I love, I love working with.

Tom:

and yeah, I guess more than anything these days I sort of describe myself as a companion to those people.

Tom:

I don't quite gel with the word coach or even advisor or consultant, but it's more someone to be with them on the journey and to, so yeah, support them how, however best I can, which can be around helping 'em be clearer about what it is that they're doing in the first

Tom:

place, or working through often people issues and around building the culture and the organizational setup to make something happen.

Tom:

So that's what I'm doing in my sort of, yeah, coaching, advisory, companionship practice, whatever the hell I call it.

Tom:

That's the elevator pitch.

Tom:

And then, and then on the software side, developed a tool called Maptio.

Tom:

And that was, came out of a need that I had as a, working with other people to be able to just map out and visualize how a vision for doing something in the world breaks down to the other smaller things that need to happen in order to bring it to life and just see who's holding which bit of the whole and who's involved in what.

Tom:

And I couldn't find a really simple tool that did what I needed, needed it to.

Tom:

So I thought, okay, that's my signal that I need to create this.

Tom:

And it became a very large overgrown side project, which now takes up more of my time than anything else.

Tom:

So I'm working on that.

Tom:

But the two things are quite heavily interlinked.

Tom:

So some people find one or the other and then get involved in the other thing.

Tom:

And they're very different stages as well, which may be reflects the pricing conversation.

Tom:

So I guess I've been sort of selling and delivering services for well over 20, 20 years.

Tom:

So I'm sort of pretty well established at doing that.

Tom:

Still learning obviously, but sort of know much more where I'm at around pricing and other things.

Tom:

And then on the product side of things, I'm making it up as I go along and I don't really know what I'm doing.

Tom:

So that's the bit where maybe you guys can help me a little bit more.

Tom:

But I've been doing some funky experiments with it all and as, as you know, I'm into the subject of money and how we can work more artfully with money.

Tom:

That was one of the topics in the book that, that came out a couple of years ago that I wrote.

Carlos:

I was really curious about this, uh, the word being a companion and why the words coach and consultant didn't fit for you.

Tom:

Yeah, well, I think coaching is definitely part of, of what I do.

Tom:

I have done, I've done a small amount of sort of formal training and coaching, but I'm not like one of these kind of CTI coaches who's done all the, all the weekends and, and a certification and all the rest of it.

Tom:

You know, my experience more comes out of my own life as a, as a founder for nearly 20, well, for over 20 years.

Tom:

Um, so coach never quite feels like it hits the nail on the head.

Tom:

And also because coaching generally, if you're very pure about it, is really about facilitating someone to come up with their own answers.

Tom:

Um, whereas obviously being an advisor or a, or a consultant, you might be throwing ideas in and I'm, I do that all the time.

Tom:

So I do both of those things, both asking questions and just saying, why don't we do it this way, or, how about this?

Tom:

And a pure coach might say, you should ease off on the advice.

Tom:

Um, and an advisor might just say, well, you should be the expert and you should tell them what to do.

Tom:

So both of those things are kind of true.

Tom:

I've also had some, you know, basic training in, in counseling as well.

Tom:

So sometimes it's just giving someone some empathy and holding space for them to, to talk about what's really going on for them.

Tom:

Um, so yeah, so it touches different approaches at different times.

Tom:

I, I particularly lean on Peter Koenig's research into the role of source, which is about helping a founder see themselves fundamentally, not so much as a leader or a CEO, but as a creative person.

Tom:

So underneath all of this organizational leadership or company stuff, there's some sort of creative endeavor to try to bring some kind of idea into the world.

Tom:

So bringing people back to creativity as their, as their foundation for everything they're doing, I find really powerful and, and fun to work on.

Tom:

So that's sort of at the heart of my approach.

Tom:

So, um, yeah.

Tom:

So yeah.

Tom:

So companion just feels like, yeah.

Tom:

Sort of a word that might sum up a few of those things, but maybe that's a better word, or I should just, just, sometimes I do describe myself as a coach and advisor 'cause at least people ha have an understanding of generally what that is.

Tom:

So I'm not too precious about it.

Ben:

everything you're saying there resonates with me, Tom, like in sort of both the kind of work that you do and also the, uh, the kind of, uh, ineffectiveness of sort of a specific label.

Ben:

But I guess it always kind of rubs up, doesn't it?

Ben:

Is what other people's expectation is.

Ben:

And so it's like, oh, okay, coach advisor.

Ben:

Okay.

Ben:

I get it.

Tom:

Yeah.

Ben:

You can go into that camp.

Ben:

Uh, and so people, the, the kind of comfort and familiarity levels that people feel at the wanting to feel at the beginning of relationship to kind of know roughly what box to put you in.

Ben:

But I, I like the, I like the idea of companion a lot.

Carlos:

uh, I'm reminded of our mutual friend, uh, Charles Davies, and I remember him talking about forests and walking through, well, maybe I'm misremembering, but the, the way I remember is this idea of like walking through a forest, uh, and going from one place to another and

Carlos:

being someone who's maybe done that journey so many times that when someone else is walking through that forest, you can walk alongside them.

Tom:

Mm.

Carlos:

And maybe you can say, don't go down that path or that, but also you can say, well, how are you gonna deal with this log in the way?

Carlos:

What are you gonna do?

Carlos:

So there's that.

Carlos:

I think there's something interesting about the kind of, for me anyway, the, the nature connection and the kind of, equal footing that the word companion brings.

Tom:

Yeah, exactly.

Tom:

And it's, yeah, you can stretch the metaphor along way, can't you?

Tom:

It's like, it's about thinking about things as living, living systems and it's emergent and, and growing.

Tom:

And the forest ain't gonna look the same on their journey as it is on my journey, not at least because I started my first business in the year 2000, and the world's kind of different, um, than, as it is now.

Tom:

No one needs to get an ISDN line at home to, uh, to start their business.

Carlos:

So, you know, like you said before, you know, you like the word companion.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

But not everyone understands what that means when it comes to business.

Carlos:

And so you might have to resort to words that meet people where they're at better?

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And what that means in terms of this whole idea, you know, selling services, you know, do you, do you like to go in straight with, oh, this is how I am and this is my companion way of working?

Carlos:

Or do you present yourself more often than not, as with words that people already know?

Tom:

Good question.

Tom:

I think I probably, most of the time, if I'm putting myself out there, I probably use the more familiar words because I think it's, it's more about terms that make sense to them rather than me coming up with, you know, people invent funky job titles about, about what they do, and

Tom:

that's great, but if you put that out there, someone's never heard that before and doesn't know what it is, it's not gonna be useful to anyone.

Carlos:

Because I, I'm connecting that also to working with the people we really wanna work with.

Carlos:

And the way I'm hearing you talk is like there's this particular type of relationship you want to have

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

With your clients, which then for me means that by using certain words or presenting yourself in a certain way, you then attract the right people.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

As opposed to someone who's like looking for the stereotypical coach or stereotypical consultant, and then you then having a struggle of, well, this is actually my, a fit for me.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

And I think this is really important actually.

Tom:

'cause a lot of traditional marketing would say, right, define your target audience.

Tom:

Like who are they?

Tom:

What are their needs?

Tom:

How do you, you know, how do you frame what, what it is they think they're looking for?

Tom:

And then how do you target that self services?

Tom:

And um, and actually I personally prefer turning that on its head and just being out there in the world talking and doing what I'm most passionate about and letting that attract the right people in.

Tom:

Um, and completely putting off the even larger group of people who I'm not, who I'm not right for.

Tom:

And that's, yeah, that to me is a lot lighter.

Tom:

So, you know, that there was, having, having written a book that helps with that because I just sort of laid out, you know, I sort of wrote the book that I wished I could have had when I was at all the pivotal moments when I was a, when I was a founder, and just sort of put that out into the world and in the hope that it, occasionally it gets into the hands of someone who might need it.

Tom:

And then some of those people say, oh yeah, this is exactly what I need.

Tom:

And then they get in touch and they don't really care whether I call myself a coach or a companion, and then they've already been inside my brain 'cause they've read the, because they've read the book.

Tom:

And if that resonated with them, then, then maybe we'll work together.

Carlos:

Well, this is for me, like a useful segue before I do that.

Carlos:

Um, for those of you interested in the book that Tom's talking about, it's called Work With Source.

Carlos:

workwithsource.com.

Carlos:

So on that note of, it sounds like the, you know, you are, people will come to you because they under, they kind of vibe with the way you present yourself in the world.

Carlos:

Uh, and one of the things that, um, kind of connects to the kind of, the way we talk about happy pricing is, and what Ben, you know, told, told me is like, you, you can't convince someone to work with you.

Tom:

Mm.

Carlos:

A lot of the time.

Carlos:

They've already kind of made some kind of decision and what you're doing is just giving them some confidence, more confidence and clarity about that decision.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

On your blog post, um, about this kind of client friendly retainer, you talk about always having conversations, always delivering value, and, and as that, as your process of selling,

Tom:

Yeah, so it's funny for me because for a lot of my earlier career I was involved in, when I had a consulting company, I was involved in selling consulting projects.

Tom:

So selling was a big focus.

Tom:

And actually, you know, it was a big revelation and quite a big release for me actually, when, when I realized that the most important thing to do is not actually selling, it's just delivering value and just being, being useful to people, right from, right from the word go.

Tom:

So I don't do, I don't do sales, sales meetings.

Tom:

So if someone gets in touch with me, I just try and have a really useful, um, call with them.

Tom:

And if that, if that call was useful, then it'll probably lead to a, to a second call.

Tom:

And when things work really well, at some point the client says, oh, I really should start paying you.

Tom:

Can you send me an, an invoice?

Tom:

And should we talk about how much, you should charge to, to keep helping me?

Tom:

And I say, yeah, that would be absolutely lovely.

Tom:

And then we can talk about What's the right investment for them?

Tom:

Um, so I think, yeah, that makes a big difference.

Tom:

So rather than treating a first meeting is, okay, let's talk about what we might do.

Tom:

And I'm kind of, you're kind of pitching your credentials to them and trying to position yourself or assert that you're very useful, just actually be useful.

Tom:

And if, and if you are to them, then it will, then it will flow and it will work.

Tom:

And if it's just not right, you'll figure it out really quickly that you just can't really help them or they're not open to your style, which is completely fair enough because no, no one's right for everyone.

Tom:

Um, so that's generally my, my approach is, yeah, is just try and be useful right from, from the word go.

Tom:

Um, and yeah, I've just had one this week where I started the, the formal paid engagement with the client, and that was, I think that was the, maybe the fourth call I think that then became paid for, but I really enjoyed all the others.

Tom:

I was really happy just to meet them and process it being very unattached./ And I'd rather spend time with people trying to be useful and have some of them not go anywhere than spend time, you know, more in that sales mode where you're pitching things at people and then you just write off that time because it hasn't led anywhere.

Ben:

I think, yeah, I think absolutely.

Ben:

I think, yeah, the kind of the focus on, you know, a what's kind of interesting to you and b being useful, uh, clearly is, you know, feels like very, very kind of, sort of good sound advice.

Ben:

'Cause if it's gonna go somewhere, it all goes somewhere.

Ben:

Um, I guess the, I guess what I'm curious about is how and when you get to the money bit of the conversation.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

So I let it come up really naturally and sometimes it, it can be on the first call.

Tom:

So I've had calls where it's just a, a half an hour call where usually it's someone who's already dipped into some of my work.

Tom:

Maybe they've read the book or they've read some stuff online.

Tom:

So they've got a pretty good idea of where I'm coming from.

Tom:

And then we just have a half an hour call and then it seems like they want an ongoing relationship.

Tom:

And it might just happen immediately.

Tom:

And other times it's a bit more exploratory, a bit more like the one I mentioned just now where we might have a few, we might have a few calls and then, yeah, and then ideally it's, I think when the client brings it up to say, oh, this should, we should move this into an official thing now.

Tom:

And then it's great.

Tom:

And then you're following, you're following their leads on it.

Tom:

Or sometimes, you know, if that doesn't happen, I might, I might just sort of sense the energy shift that I've gone as far as, it feels really good to me, you know, with it being a sort of an ambiguous relationship.

Tom:

And I might just say, look, shall I just really dedicate some time to you and just put, you know, a recurring call in my calend in calendar for you so that we can be regularly checking in and really moving you forward rather than it being this ad hoc kind of thing?

Tom:

And then, yeah, sometimes the client says yes to that.

Tom:

Or it may fit or it may just fizzle out if I'm not the right person.

Tom:

But, you know, and that, that tends to not happen that often.

Tom:

Not because I'm brilliant, but because, 'cause I know I'm, I'm not right for more people than I'm right for.

Tom:

But I think because the filter of people checking out my stuff before they get in touch generally sends people who are a good fit in my direction.

Tom:

But if they're not, then, then my job is to try and point 'em in the right direction.

Tom:

And if I opened up the conversation, we're getting more deeply into what they need and where they're coming from.

Tom:

I might just say, oh yeah, you don't really need me.

Tom:

Maybe you need someone who really is a pure coach and who has done that work.

Tom:

Or maybe I need, yeah, I need to suggest you do some trauma therapy work.

Tom:

Which is not, which is not what I, what I do, and that's actually gonna be more useful to them at this time.

Tom:

But through that exploration, yeah, you have a better sense and you can, can help the most by signposting them to someone else.

Carlos:

I, I love that, uh, the fact that you, the idea of trauma therapy could come up in one of your conversations with, uh, uh, with a founder.

Carlos:

Is not, not everyone thinks that something that they, they'd have to consider when, uh, looking for a coach or consultant.

Tom:

Yeah, certainly.

Tom:

I mean, I think most, most of us are traumatized.

Tom:

I think it's probably more people who are traumatized in some way than, who aren't at, at all, consciously or unconsciously.

Carlos:

So what, what I was getting from that, well, the word commitment was springing to mind and it was, it felt like an organic, approach to getting to a point where someone's willing to commit, and that's thing all right.

Carlos:

Right.

Carlos:

And, you know, do you want to talk to me more regularly?

Carlos:

Shall we start putting in some times and dates?

Carlos:

Uh, and so that feels like one important hurdle or important milestone to get to when you are on this process of selling.

Carlos:

Then you start talking about money.

Carlos:

And you start coming up with a number.

Carlos:

What has your approach and experience been of that?

Tom:

Yeah, sure.

Tom:

So a few things to say here.

Tom:

So one thing.

Tom:

I always try and do is to help, to help find exactly the right number.

Tom:

Like in the kind of the Goldilocks zone where it's exactly right.

Tom:

It's not too much and it's not, it's not too little.

Tom:

And what I encourage clients to do on their side is to, is to help feel out the right number.

Tom:

And to help think about that is I always say to people, it should feel like the amount you're paying is a real investment in your, in yourself and in the initiative that you're trying to to develop.

Tom:

Because that's why we're working together.

Tom:

'Cause we're trying to do high value work that really takes you forward.

Tom:

So that should be reflected in what they, what they pay, 'cause that's obviously connected to the value that they're getting.

Tom:

And I know you guys are big believers in value pricing.

Tom:

Um, and so when you think about it from that perspective, that kind of pushes the potential number upwards and stops it being too cheap.

Tom:

But then we don't want it to be too expensive either.

Tom:

And so what I also say to people is say, well, let's not, let's not overinvest in this because if you overinvest, that can put a really unhealthy pressure on the relationship that they see you as some kind of guru who they're gonna have some calls with, and I'm gonna somehow work some magic spell and solve all their problems and their business, or whatever's gonna take off overnight.

Tom:

And, you know, if that happens, that's not gonna be fundamentally because of me.

Tom:

It's gonna be because of them.

Tom:

They're ultimately responsible for their own results.

Tom:

So I don't want the, the weight of an, you know, an unhelpful level of expectation on my shoulders.

Tom:

I want 'em to expect a lot of me and how I show up, but not that it's something that's just, you know, a fiction.

Tom:

And also something that's appropriate for their, their financial means and their situation, which of course varies drastically.

Tom:

And I can give the same price to two different founders, maybe even with similar sized initiatives.

Tom:

And so one, it's like, oh, wow.

Tom:

Yeah, that sounds, that sounds totally fine, cheap, even, and to someone else, it might be completely out of the question.

Tom:

So finding something that doesn't, that's affordable to them and doesn't put an unnecessary pressure on the relationship and, and, and cause a big distraction that they're really worried about the money and like, oh shit, what if this is not good enough?

Tom:

So that helps to find the sweet spot.

Tom:

And, and I think it, it.

Tom:

It can be as much art as science, or probably more art because of the nature of this kind of work.

Tom:

Like if you're selling marketing services, it's much easier to draw a dotted line to sort of revenue and profit and margins and that kind of thing.

Tom:

And you can make a bit more of a calculation as to financial value of it.

Tom:

But if the founder's just like, yeah, I'm lost and I'm not really sure what the deeper meaning of this thing I'm doing is, how do you say, okay, well that sounds like that's 500 quid a month or 5,000 pounds a month, or you know, who knows?

Tom:

it's much, much harder.

Tom:

But quite often I think when you open up the dialogue about the, the investment, the right number often just comes to people.

Tom:

And people have a feeling in their, their gut and they just say, oh, I'd, I think it's this per month.

Tom:

So often I try to see if the client can come up with the, the number.

Tom:

I think more and more I've, I just have a sense from having been doing this for some, for some time about what works for me based on living in a city where housing is very expensive and what I need to charge based on the time and energy I have available and what seems to be right for initiatives that are similar to theirs.

Tom:

So, so quite often I do suggest something, but then we might adjust, um, adjust from there and see how we go.

Ben:

I'm really kind of curious in, in that approach and how it sort of lands with people.

Ben:

So like from other contexts, if I think about where, so completely sort of unrelated, but you know, even to kind of context, which might unrelated to a context where you might be selling something sort of commercially, like I part own a platform where provide meditation teachings.

Ben:

And kind of on that where everything is essentially provided, you know, for donation and you can choose to pay nothing or you can choose to donate something.

Ben:

And in that, or even running kind of, uh, programs and courses which work in a sort of similar way, one of the things that we found is basically if we kind of were putting it all on them to decide, uh, actually that in many instances creates quite a lot of sort of uncertainty, maybe uncertainty in the ambi ambiguity.

Ben:

What should I put on, shouldn't I put on, is there an appropriate amount?

Ben:

Do they really mean that there's an appropriate amount they're not telling me, or when they say it's free, can it really be free?

Ben:

And so all of the, the kind of.

Ben:

You know, anxiety essentially, which kind of bubbles up in the heart mind of the person on the other side, actually in a way makes it harder for them to commit.

Ben:

Oftentimes we kind of sort of push them away from, from the thing that we're doing.

Ben:

So I was kind of really curious when you were sort of talking about that, and I know you kind of came round in the end to what the, what you're saying there, kind of offering something as a, as a kind of, as a pointer, as a direction,

Tom:

Yeah, and I think, um, you know, this is like some classic old school sales thing.

Tom:

It's like, you know, a traditional sales person would always say, if you can try and get the cus the client or the customer to name the price first.

Tom:

Because if that's high, if that's at the higher end, then you'll just say yes, and if it's too low, then you can try and negotiate upwards.

Tom:

But actually, you know, particularly for the work I do and not at least one of the themes is around people's relationship to money.

Tom:

I'm trying to get everyone to work as artfully with money as they can, where everything is done in a way where it's just, it feels exactly, exactly right.

Tom:

And so I think, yeah, part of the art is knowing when just to say to a, to a client, okay, I think this is probably the price, does this work for you?

Tom:

Or when to sort of push them a bit and to sort of, yeah, encourage them to think it through and let the number bubble up.

Tom:

You know, one interesting little tactic from, again, from, um, from Charlie, it's a tradition.

Tom:

Whenever I come on your podcast, Carlos, it's like, we have to invoke Charlie Davies at least once,

Tom:

but I'm very happy to.

Tom:

Um, but yeah, one interesting thing that he said is sometimes the, the person who's kind of making the proposal to work together, which could be the client or the person providing the service, um, often they're the one who has a better sense of what the price should be, which I find a really interesting framing.

Tom:

And I definitely think that is true some of the times.

Tom:

So when someone's really kind of, you know, like, you know, really pulling at me and saying, yeah, I really wanna work with you and this is what, this is what I need and this is what I want and it all sounds great, and I say, okay, and how much do you think you should pay for it?

Tom:

They'd be like, this much.

Tom:

And other times if, if we've had a conversation and I, you know, maybe I take the initiative to say, yeah, maybe we should turn this into a professional thing.

Tom:

I, I could imagine maybe working with you like this.

Tom:

What do you think?

Tom:

And then it's, it's kind of more right for them to say, well, how much will you charge for that?

Tom:

And then maybe I need to name the price.

Tom:

So I think not doing it in a way to try and manipulate the client or as a negotiating tactic, we're just trying to artfully figure out in a very creative way what's gonna be the right way to go with the conversation to find exactly the right price that everyone feels good about is not too high and not too low.

Carlos:

What I was, um, really curious about was this idea of the price being so high that it puts a pressure on the relationship.

Carlos:

And I think there's, well, the way I'm kind of projecting on this is how that makes me feel.

Carlos:

It's also what the client feels in terms of like, okay, oh my God, uh, can I really afford this?

Carlos:

But then it's also how it's may maybe stops me being as creative or as, you know, experimental or just as present as I need to be because I feel this pressure of I must deliver value for that amount of money.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And that, how that relates to my story of value.

Carlos:

And for me, there, there's that.

Carlos:

In a sense, one of the things we talk about on the course is like, what are people buying?

Carlos:

And for instance, I had some people today and we were just talking about, we're doing a group coaching program with them, and we're just talking about what is it you need?

Carlos:

And in my head it is like, all right, six months results, we need to have results.

Carlos:

And more just about everyone said, I, I, I really value connection.

Carlos:

And that's what I, um, you know, in a sense that's what, what they were buying, and somehow the, I'm not sure how the number Connects to this either, this value of connection.

Tom:

Mm.

Carlos:

So, In a sense, it's like, well, that's all I need to do is provide a connection and how much is connection worth to people?

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And is that kind of, uh, that's where the space I went to is like, oh, well, does someone pay 5,000 pounds a month for connection?

Carlos:

250 pounds a month?

Carlos:

What, how much is, how much is connection worth to someone?

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Well, I think this is interesting, you know, and I wouldn't, you know, we shouldn't discount the experience that people have had of working with money in their lives, of comparing things that are just so completely different.

Tom:

You know, the experience of buying a computer versus paying for a yoga class or a retreat that, that you go, and yet somehow we're always making these decisions about does it feel worth it?

Tom:

Like, what's the value to me of a yoga class?

Tom:

I'm gonna, you know, feel a little sense of wellbeing and I'm not gonna be so stiff afterwards versus having a computer that's a tool.

Tom:

Work on.

Tom:

So we're all doing it all of the, all of the time.

Tom:

And, you know, we are making decisions based on different levels of rationality and irrationality, probably more of the latter, I would say overall., Overall.

Tom:

So we are all doing it all the time.

Tom:

So even if it's like, okay.

Tom:

Connection and you can just sense into that, just think, yeah, if I'm investing in my connection, what feels like a real investment in that, but not so much that it just feels crazy relative to all the other things I spend money on and have to budget for, you know, given the socioeconomic system that we live in?

Tom:

Um, and then they might say, yeah, I'll pay X per month or X for this program or weekend, or whatever it might be.

Tom:

And so yeah, people can do it and we do do it all the time.

Carlos:

You use the word you Well, I, I, I've heard the word sense a lot and it's if a felt approach to the number.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Uh, and I'm, you know, a lot of the time I do lots of mental calculations.

Carlos:

Uh, and that's based on a comparison.

Carlos:

And I'm wondering how that manifests in your conversations because like, you know, there's what, I don't know, again, it feels such a subjective thing and it might be based on what's happening to me in the moment, what's happening to the business in the moment as opposed to what's actually happening.

Tom:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

Because what feels like's happening?

Carlos:

What's versus what's actually happening?

Carlos:

IE I've got shed loads of money in the bank.

Carlos:

It's slowly going down and because of that, I'm being a bit scared.

Carlos:

I don't wanna spend any money.

Carlos:

and so there's the reality of like, I do, I can invest in this from a logical point of view, and then there's actually how I am, how I am being in the moment, played out.

Tom:

Yeah, exactly.

Tom:

I mean, you know, and this is where we get into the, the deeper topic of people's relationship to money.

Tom:

Because you could have two individuals who've had, so identical twins who've had identical upbringings have somehow ended up in exactly the same kind of career, everything about their lives are the same, but there's a possibility that because of how they relate to money, they see it differently.

Tom:

And they could both look at their bank balance and one could be like, yeah, whatever.

Tom:

And the other could, could feel a sense of, of fear, maybe because of something that happened in the younger years to one of them, but not, but not the other.

Tom:

And so all of that unconscious stuff, including the unconscious stuff of the provi of the provider, you know, of me as a, as a companion or whatever the hell I call myself, um, will be there in the room as well.

Tom:

So what feelings of self-worth I might project onto money.

Tom:

I think it's really important, particularly for people who work in some sort of helping kind of role.

Tom:

If you're sending a more sort of functional service that you deliver, it's still important, but not as important.

Tom:

But if you are helping as, as people doing things relating to coaching, do helping people to be more self-aware and to show up in the world more authentically.

Tom:

And if in your conversations with them you've got a load of unprocessed, unconscious stuff that gets projected onto, onto money, that you feel deeply insecure without mon, without money, then that's gonna show up in how you pitch for the, for the services, that sort of nervousness or, or fear.

Tom:

So I think it's, I think it's essential work for anyone working in any sort of helping profession to do that kind of money work.

Tom:

I know you had my good friend, um, Nadjeschda Taranczewski on, on one of your podcasts, and she runs the CU Money course online, and which is a great way to, to surface and process what your relationship to money is and come from a, a clearer, more aware, uh, kind of place.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Because otherwise that stuff will, will sort of be, be affecting the outcomes and you won't even know it.

Tom:

It will just be pulling you around like, like the winds.

Ben:

I'm kind of curious, just in a kind of practical sense, if somebody says, um, so you have the conversation about kind of, sort of where they kind of feel is right on money.

Ben:

Do you sort of take that and just kind of go with it, or does, is that the starting point of a conversation for you?

Ben:

Like if somebody says an amount and is it, is that amount the amount you go with?

Ben:

Or is that a starting point for a conversation?

Tom:

If, if it feels good to me.

Tom:

So if they come up with the, with the number and I, I really check in with myself and in, in many ways this is like an embodied kind of feeling.

Tom:

And I think, does this feel right to me for, for this client based on everything that they've, they've told me?

Tom:

And also where I'm at in my life, 'cause I'm thinking about my family budget and our mortgage and, and, and all the rest of it.

Tom:

And if, if my body says, yeah, that feels good, then we'll run with, with that price.

Tom:

If I notice there's some resistance in me, and I don't think it's coming from some unconscious place of trauma, but it's just genuinely too low for the time and energy it's gonna need, um, from me, and I will say that because again, that's not healthy for the client either, because you need your helper to turn up sort of fully energized feeling that, that it's exactly, that, it's exactly right.

Tom:

Um, so yeah, so I will, so I will definitely check it.

Tom:

And likewise, I'll be listening really carefully.

Tom:

If I, if I say the, the price to the client, I'll be noticing their reaction to it and reading between the lines as well, because, you know, people's relationship to money, you know, can cause 'em to be over-cautious with money and sort of wanna hang onto it rather than investing it in in something.

Tom:

And that's doesn't serve anybody.

Tom:

But some people go to the opposite direction, they're pushing money away and it's possible.

Tom:

And there are plenty of coaches out there who are charging more than is actually healthy in a particular situation to a client, 'cause consciously or unconsciously, they're exploiting something in that client, in that client.

Tom:

And, um, you know, and again, a traditional salesperson would say, great, if it helps me hit my numbers, then um, charge them whatever I can get, get away with.

Tom:

But actually that's not what we want.

Tom:

We want more people to be conscious and aware of what's really going on.

Tom:

So sometimes I might just say that just seems too high to me, even if it's a number I would love to charge.

Tom:

Um, I'm even thinking of a client I'm working with at the moment where we found the number and I was, I was slightly surprised, uh, uh, where it was, but actually it was, it was a number that did feel good, so we, so we went with it.

Tom:

And now as we're starting to work together, I'm uncovering a little bit about them having a tendency to push money away.

Tom:

So that's been a flag in my, in my mind, and I will certainly even raise the topic if I think it's healthy to say, you are investing too much in this.

Tom:

Even if you are not aware of that, I'm starting to pick this up and let's talk about that and make that part of the work.

Tom:

But it does also mean you need to be really aware of your own sense of abundance because, you know, a lot of coaches and consultants are struggling.

Tom:

And I've definitely had periods, you know, my earlier years of doing this kind of thing where I've looked at my monthly income and it's been really low.

Tom:

And that's can be dangerous territory if you then have a, that brings up a fear in you, um, to just charge whatever you can, um, to somebody.

Tom:

So actually I think it's almost a, a duty to, yeah, do your own work on yourself so you come from a cleaner, clearer place.

Tom:

But also, you know, hopefully to be a good helper and therefore you've got plenty of work.

Tom:

So the client's paying too much.

Tom:

You can say, I think you should be paying me half of this, and the client will probably be really shocked and surprised and probably love you forever for being that helpful and honest.

Tom:

And that's, you know, how much is that worth to have helped someone that way?

Carlos:

I love that.

Carlos:

And I, I'm, so what, what I'm getting from that, there's.

Carlos:

There's something, well, very much about self-awareness and you, you know, you talk about doing your own work around this.

Carlos:

Uh, the word ethics springs to mind as well.

Carlos:

It's like, what, what feels right given your knowledge of the person and their context?

Carlos:

And then there's this other aspect around, uh, I'm gonna say mindset around abundance and scarcity.

Carlos:

And I feel the kinds of conversations you are having and the way that you are working is most suited for people at a certain stage of their work, I feel.

Carlos:

I dunno, maybe I'm just oversimplifying it, but there's, the story I'm telling in my head is like, I'm at a stage where, you know, I have enough work and I could get more, but there's something more that I want to get from the work other than just more money.

Tom:

Mm.

Carlos:

There's kind of this sense that I am.

Carlos:

I'm gonna say doing good, because I can say no, or I can say reduce the prices.

Carlos:

I can work more creatively.

Carlos:

Let's put it this way with, with the, with the way I'm selling That fair?

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Do you mean on the client side or on the

Carlos:

No, I'm, I'm looking, I'm thinking about, because you mentioned someone like who's is just starting out as a coach, and you know, they maybe got the day job as well.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Uh, and they're still transitioning and so this whole, or maybe they've blossom the day job's gone and they're just like, now fall into coach and, and that's their only source of income.

Carlos:

And there's like this real fear like, oh my God.

Carlos:

if that fear's there?

Carlos:

It is really hard to turn up in the way that I'm hearing you turn up in your conversations.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Unless you've done a lot of self work, but even still there's, I dunno how you get rid of that when you've got the mortgage to pay next month.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

Exact.

Tom:

Exactly.

Tom:

But I, so I would say to someone like that is, is do the work on your relationship to money before you make the leap out of your, out of your other job.

Tom:

Because you know, there's, there's, there's two ways to, to sort of feel secure about money.

Tom:

If, if security is the story you have about what money, what money is, and that's the keep trying to earn ever more.

Tom:

And every, every time your income goes up, you feel a bit more secure, but then it's fleeting and then you have to earn more and more and it's a never ending treadmill.

Tom:

Or you just do the work to say, well, my security, my deepest sense of security does not come from my bank balance or the money I can be secure with and without money.

Tom:

And if you can do that, then you can take the leap and just say, oh wow, fancy that.

Tom:

I've given up my paid job and I've got two coaching clients and very little income.

Tom:

But that's perfect and I can feel okay.

Carlos:

For those of you, those of you listening who, uh, who haven't thought about doing money work and just that self-awareness around money, that seems to be very core to this, as well as the tactics and strategies that you employ to just help people be, feel more confident around the, the number that my Ben, myself, and Ben talk about in the pricing course.

Carlos:

But then this, what I'm hearing from you, Tom, that your real kind of idea around finding the right relationships, talking about value early, finding that sense of commitment, sensing when that sense of commitment is starting to become more concrete.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And then having the coverage to talk about money in a way that's very open and, and, and also coming from both sides, not just the, the supplier trying to dictate the price.

Tom:

Yeah, I mean, I think I'd agree.

Tom:

I'd agree with everything you say.

Tom:

I mean, it's, I think, yeah, if part of your service offering is inner work and and development, you have to, you have to do it on yourself and it can become about the work.

Tom:

So if, if people have a resistance to talking about money, so this is a thing you hear a lot from people often in the helping professions as well, so coaches or thera therapists or, or others, they kind of wish they didn't have to talk to talk about money.

Tom:

There can be something that feels a bit icky about that.

Tom:

But that's an inner story.

Tom:

That's not a fundamental truth about, about money.

Tom:

And you can bring that into the work and it can be, yeah, a source of, I mean, I, I wouldn't advise the therapist 'cause I'm not a therapist, but certainly in coaching work, you could go back to that conversation and go, yeah, what, what was going on for both of us when we were talking about money?

Tom:

Why does it feel really straightforward to talk about everything else to do with the work about what we're gonna do to even be really vulnerable and talk about, you know, really personal stuff and have the trust to do that.

Tom:

And yet when we're talking about what does this cost per month, people go ugh, and find that really hard.

Tom:

So I think bringing it into the work is, is powerful.

Carlos:

Services done.

Carlos:

All right.

Carlos:

Everyone knows how to do that now.

Tom:

Guarantee.

Tom:

The guarantee thing.

Tom:

'cause I think

Carlos:

Oh yes, please.

Tom:

Yeah, go for it.

Tom:

So this is just a very kind of tactical thing that I thought has, that I found has worked super well over the years.

Tom:

So one of the things that I noticed many years ago is there's often this point when you are selling services where, the provider feels confident that they can probably help you.

Tom:

And the person buying it, it's like, this all sounds good, but then in the back of their mind they're like, well we haven't, we haven't really got deep into it yet.

Tom:

So I don't really know for sure.

Tom:

And so there's, that can be just that resistance or fear at the last minute before really committing to that they're gonna pay the money.

Tom:

And we can partly get around that with the approach we talked about at the beginning by seeing all the conversations from the start as providing value.

Tom:

'Cause by the time they've had a bit of that, they're like, well, I know it's valuable 'cause we're already doing it.

Tom:

Um, but sometimes you might be able to start the work much more quickly.

Tom:

Like, you know, sometimes, as I said before, for me it might be just a half an hour call.

Tom:

And then what I do is I'll, once we've surfaced what the number is, so I tend to work on a, on an ongoing basis.

Tom:

We try and come up with a monthly, a monthly figure.

Tom:

Um, and then what I say to the, the client is that I'll bill you for the first month on the day that we, that we get started.

Tom:

Um, and the invitation is to only pay that invoice when energetically in your body, it feels really good and you feel really happy to pay it, because you can, you can see and feel the value and you feel really happy.

Tom:

And, and with a promise that if that moment doesn't come, they have the complete right to either part pay it or I'll just credit the whole, the whole thing if it just wasn't right.

Tom:

But we wouldn't see any of that as a drama or a problem.

Tom:

We would treat that feeling around the money as useful information.

Tom:

Um, and so if they're feeling like, oh yeah, I really wanna pay this.

Tom:

I'm very happy to, um, to send the money over to you, then that's a really good signal that we're doing the right work.

Tom:

And then the money is sent with love and it's received with love.

Tom:

And that's, to me is working artfully with money.

Tom:

And if it doesn't come, it's like, yeah, what's the stickiness about?

Tom:

And it could be about the relationship to money.

Tom:

It could be it's the wrong amount.

Tom:

It could be 'cause I'm just not the right person for them and I should be talking about signposting them elsewhere.

Tom:

Because they're a bit like, oh, you've got me.

Tom:

Like, how can I say no because damnit, you are not manipulating.

Tom:

You've given me all the power, I've everything to do with the money.

Tom:

And it's like, yeah.

Tom:

But it's great for me because then when, when the money is transferred, I think, oh, great, I know I'm doing, I'm doing a good job and that the money really was right.

Tom:

And I've actually have not ever had a single instance where someone hasn't paid it.

Tom:

And, and again, it's not because I'm perfect or right for everyone, but it's just because of it's working in this way has helped me find the right people.

Tom:

And I think if they weren't right, they probably wouldn't have got in touch or we probably wouldn't have got started.

Tom:

So I feel like I can just offer this really generous, sort of easy, simple guarantee to people, and it only helps.

Tom:

And some people will push back on that stuff.

Tom:

Oh no, the commitment is really important.

Tom:

You need to sign up and you need to commit.

Tom:

Actually my experience, I think ultimately whether someone's committed will be based on whether the work is genuinely useful and valuable.

Tom:

Not because they've committed and in a way it could be unhealthy, where they're like, oh, I've gotta make this work, but I'm really not liking this coach, but I've, I've agreed to pay this money, or I've paid it upfront, or there's a contract.

Tom:

Uh, it's, it's not gonna make it work and it's probably gonna make it harder.

Tom:

So I think it's best just to go with what's more natural there.

Tom:

So I've been doing that for years, and anyone out there is welcome to rip that idea off me.

Tom:

I think it'd be nice if more and more people did that.

Carlos:

Let's talk about Maptio and your approach to pricing that.

Tom:

Yeah, so this is where, this is where I talk like less of an experienced, an experienced guy.

Tom:

Um, so, so Maptio has a couple of quirks to it.

Tom:

So the, one of the key ones is it's, it's truly an impact driven business.

Tom:

So it was about scale because obviously I can only work with a certain number of people in a one-to-one, or even in a group, in a group way.

Tom:

But through software, if you can provide something valuable, it can scale to thousands or even millions of, of people in initiatives.

Tom:

So that's what really, a, attracts me to it.

Tom:

But I really don't want money to be a barrier to people who can get value from it using it.

Tom:

So I'm really holding that in my mind when I'm thinking about pricing.

Tom:

And at the same time, I don't wanna unnecessarily leave money on the table where people who are really happy to pay and they pay a higher price, just go, oh, well this thing's free, or it's $5 a month, and they would've paid 10 times more than that.

Tom:

So that's the big challenge that, um, that I've had.

Tom:

And my, my latest experiment, which I'm in, in the midst of now, is I moved to a pricing model where I have rather than three pricing plans, which is what you often see on software products, there are three price points with different intentions for who they're for.

Tom:

So like at the bottom end, it's more for individuals or the completely cash poor, those kinds of people.

Tom:

Then there's a middle one, and then there's a, a larger one, which is more for slightly bigger kind of commercial, um, enterprises.

Tom:

Um, so there's a price point for each of those.

Tom:

It goes from $25 to $60 to $120 a month, a billion dollars 'cause it's a global thing.

Tom:

And people can pick their price point and they're encouraged to sort of look for what's intended for them and then ask themselves if it feels great and if it does, to just pay that.

Tom:

And if it doesn't feel great, they can move up or down, um, to a different price point.

Tom:

And the access to the product is exactly the same.

Tom:

And additionally, I've, I give him on the same page the discount codes for either a 20% discount or a 40% discount.

Tom:

So again, it's putting a lot of power back into the hands of the, of the customer.

Tom:

And so from a rational perspective, it's basically a sliding scale from $15 a month to 120.

Tom:

So between picking a price plan and a discount, you can pay like, you know, a whole range of numbers along that, that scale.

Tom:

But people, what I found is people don't just act in their own rational self-interest and only, in fact, we have a very small number of people who pay the minimum.

Tom:

And people are popping up now, including we've had, you know, when we had the first couple of customers pay the maximum possible, it was like, ah, maybe this can work, but I don't think this would work for everyone.

Tom:

I think if Google asked me how much I wanna pay for for Google Drive, and I can pick it on a sliding scale, I'm gonna do it as cheap as possible because they've got all the money.

Tom:

So, but part of it is the story we're telling and the kind of a brand and a company and how people hear about us is all part of it.

Tom:

But that's, yeah, that's my latest sort of, I'm curious to know what you, what you think of it.

Carlos:

Well, I like the idea of that in terms of the intention is, well, the way I'm interpreting is I want all companies to operate this way.

Carlos:

And so I don't want price to be a barrier to the world changing the way they behave.

Carlos:

So there's that thing of really a mission that people are buying into.

Carlos:

Being someone who built software, and also you did, Tom, the, the thing that springs to mind, particularly on the top end of a price point is like.

Carlos:

there's the software and how it works and the outcomes, and then there's the, I'm gonna say the security, the knowledge that that system will stay up.

Carlos:

And so if I'm a really big business and I'm leaning heavily on this software, there's like a number, you know, what, what is it worth for me, for my business suddenly to not know who's doing what.

Carlos:

And so I think of my, some early clients that we had that essentially, if the software died, their clients would just go completely ballistic.

Tom:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

Um, or they, you know, it'd be really, it would be quite a bad thing.

Carlos:

So there's, there's, there's a cost implication in that in terms of your operational costs aspect of that.

Carlos:

So there's, in one sense, there's like a, a cal very hard calculation in terms of if I assume might have this many big clients, they've gotta have this, they're leaning on me this much.

Carlos:

Then how much do I need to make sure that all of the technical stuff works?

Carlos:

And then there's, it kind of speaks to what you were saying before in terms of how much there's like, I'm gonna say how much value I'm getting out of, but it's like value and how much I can afford type things.

Carlos:

Like I could get a lot of value out of this.

Carlos:

'cause we're a social enterprise that has like 10,000 people, uh, but we don't have a lot of cash.

Carlos:

So I can't spend $120 a month.

Carlos:

So I love, I love that aspect that you are actually allowing more people to buy or more people, organizations to benefit from it.

Carlos:

And then there's this more kind of, I would say, harder aspect of like, okay, but the what?

Carlos:

How much does it take to service these bigger clients?

Tom:

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Tom:

And um, yeah, where to, where to start with that?

Tom:

I mean, I think, yeah, in the previous iteration of pricing that we had where we just said, here are three pricing plans, and it's was essentially based on the size of your, your organization, which is a pretty obvious way to do it for our kind of, um, system.

Tom:

And then, then we were saying, okay, if you can't afford this, if you're a nonprofit or you're so early stage, you have no funding, then get in touch.

Tom:

And then on a case by case basis, we would just send people a, a discount code to make it affordable.

Tom:

And obviously that makes sense.

Tom:

And some people did take us up on that and we always, I always tried to find, then once I was in a conversation with them, I would give them the discount they needed so that they could, they could buy it.

Tom:

But then I kind of felt that that partly felt like a bit of a cop out.

Tom:

'cause there's still a default there to, oh, we're a commercial service, so by default, we charge these commercial prices and then you are an exception if you're something super purpose driven that doesn't have the same funding as a private sector thing.

Tom:

So you have to be the exception and you have to get in touch and do this bespoke thing.

Tom:

Huh.

Tom:

So I'm just keen to say like, is there a way where we can just directly be helping the people we most want to help.

Tom:

And I think I am prepared to take a bit of a trade off that there'll be, some customers pay less than they would've otherwise, but I don't want everyone to be paying the, the minimum, the minimum if, and, and I'll take that trade off in return for the people who really need to pay less just to feel like, ah, this is for me.

Tom:

I don't have to get in touch with them and beg for a discount code and wonder if they're gonna say yes or no and have a delay while they get back to me and all the rest of it.

Ben:

how's the experiment working?

Tom:

Well that's the key thing, isn't it?

Tom:

Sometimes you just have to try it with pricing.

Tom:

I, I think what I haven't, I haven't fully crunched the numbers, but sort of anecdotally as I've been watching subscriptions.

Tom:

Again, I think once I saw the first two subscriptions come in that were at the highest possible price, I was like, okay, this is not mad.

Tom:

And I double checked.

Tom:

And the discount codes were really clearly visible.

Tom:

Um, I think the initiatives were from two different countries.

Tom:

One was from a, one was from Japan and one was from Germany as well.

Tom:

So even cross-culturally, I think that this can work.

Tom:

People, it's definitely been skewing more towards the lower end, but not the minimum, but not the minimum either.

Tom:

So I think, um, I'm trying to remember if I set success, fail criteria for the experiment, which is what I always tell other people to do, but sometimes I'm too lazy to do it myself, so that you can be less biased when you evaluate what's happening.

Ben:

Well, I, I mean one, I mean, 'cause firstly, I sort of, I, I really sort of, uh, really appreciate and kind of, um, figure sort of great the, the approach, you know, the, the commonality and approach in a way that you bring to the product stuff that we're talking about, and also to the, the service work too.

Ben:

It all kind of feels like it's coming from the same place, the source

Tom:

Yeah.

Ben:

I guess in a sense as you would sort of, and the kind of consistency with which you do that, um, is, is kind of, is, is is really great actually.

Ben:

Uh, and um, so I then my kinda, my first question I was saying is kind of how is, how is it work, how is it working?

Tom:

Mm-Hmm.

Ben:

Um, and the, the other thing that was then just sort of comes to mind, I know you are also based in Brighton, aren't you?

Ben:

Have you been to Happy Mackey?

Ben:

The, uh, vegan, so restaurant.

Tom:

I have and they, they price.

Ben:

And so, it's obviously, it's a very different thing, but you know, that is they tried to set up on a pay what you want, uh, model.

Ben:

And the, the only reason that that came into my mind as you were talking there, that the kind of prices tend to skewer towards the kind of lower end.

Ben:

Uh, and that's kind of where people like to kind of like, to like to go in essentially.

Ben:

And so I, I could see how that would sort of start to kind of play out in, in your thing.

Tom:

Yeah.

Ben:

And, and in a sense, I guess to the point that Carlos was talking about, about where, you know, the kind of servicing a big company or all those sorts of things, in a way, by setting it out as you're doing, you are also signaling, aren't you?

Tom:

Yeah.

Ben:

You might be signaling to those companies.

Ben:

'cause of course all buyers as well are coming with a comparison.

Ben:

They're coming with an idea about what they expect.

Ben:

They're coming with an idea about what a company like ours might spend.

Ben:

And you know, we're a big company.

Ben:

We typically spend this, all this feels too low, they are being kind of, kind of identified out of the process, aren't they?

Tom:

Yeah.

Ben:

So actually I kind of really like the, the kind of signaling that goes into the pricing essentially that says, this is for me, this is for a person like me.

Tom:

Yeah, exactly.

Tom:

Exactly.

Tom:

And I'm, I'm not targeting sort of the enterprise market, and I think for that market there'd be a bit like, okay, so pricing has to go through an approvals process internally, and and people don't want to think in this weird non-standard open, they just need to know the price and, and probably if they really want the product, they can afford it anyway.

Tom:

Um, so for us, I'm more interested in sort of smaller and medium sized, very purpose driven kinds of things.

Tom:

So I think it would, it probably helps us to, to put off some of the people I'm less interested in and, and I hope encourages the people who are right.

Tom:

Plus, again, the nature of the software because it's, it's almost like a more dynamic, more modern, creative alternative to the traditional org charts.

Tom:

So the kind of people who are into that do think a bit differently and they sort of have more of a progressive, um, mindset.

Tom:

And I think as well, because Maptio is also open source, so we sell subscriptions, but also our code is open on GitHub and anyone can download it in theory and use it themselves.

Tom:

And so people who like the open source ethos, part of what they're buying is, they're like, oh, we're supporting an open source product, which they really are by taking out a subscription.

Tom:

So again, I think, yeah, I would, I think the advice I offer sort of for people sending services, like coaching is probably a bit more generic, whereas I think pricing these kind of products is much more nuanced to the market and the product and all the rest of it.

Carlos:

Well, I was thinking here for me was they're not just buying a tool, it feels like.

Carlos:

They're just, they're, they're buying, um, well I was gonna say buying a brand, but buying a way of thinking, an approach nearly like buying into a mission.

Tom:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

And so how much that, 'cause they're selling software purely as a utility.

Carlos:

And I'm thinking of Patagonia.

Carlos:

I'm not buying a jacket, I'm buying Patagonia.

Carlos:

And so I'm not buying a, a new way of thinking about my, I'm also buying into the Maptio way.

Tom:

Yeah, definitely.

Tom:

And this is an interesting one for us actually, because, you know, part of my drive for why I created the, or designed the software, was as a tool for my particular way of working with clients to help them see what they're doing, not fundamentally as a company, but as a creative initiative.

Tom:

And to map it out using that particular lens and this sort of a practice around that.

Tom:

But the people who know about that and can do that is a tiny, tiny market.

Tom:

So at the same time, the product is also has a sort of a long tail of customers who aren't using exactly the same way as I do, but kind of want something to do organizational mapping in a more modern, creative, funky way.

Tom:

And that definitely, um, yeah, creates some more complication in it.

Tom:

'Cause we almost have two different entry points.

Tom:

And it makes, like, for example, at the moment I'm thinking about whether to, whether or not to be a freemium product.

Tom:

And it's a real challenge 'cause I realized that for some use cases of our product, which are really important to us.

Tom:

The alternative to the product is probably just doing it in Miro or in or on a, a Google slide or even on pen and paper.

Tom:

And actually Maptio is like a paid for like upgrade to doing that much more easily through software.

Tom:

Um, and then for the other use case of people who aren't really, who just want sort of an alternative org chart type thing, we've got other competitors on that side of things and all of their products are way more expensive and way more bloated with features.

Tom:

And so we are capturing a bit of the market where they're like, we want it really simple, really easy small learning curve, and therefore, like a lower, a lower cost.

Tom:

And so, so actually they see it as a cut down cheaper thing.

Tom:

And so it's really hard.

Tom:

I'm trying to reconcile those two, those two things.

Tom:

And I know conventional product wisdom would say, don't do that.

Tom:

Just like, pick the one that you've got the best shot at and just go all out on that.

Tom:

But if I was to do that, it would be the product that's less aligned to purpose.

Tom:

'Cause I'm not setting out just to create a simple product in this market, actually.

Tom:

I wanna serve the other market and I want to help that market grow over the long term.

Tom:

Um, and I wanna onboard some people who come in from the other direction into this other way of working, which we do see happen.

Tom:

So it's quite, it's quite complicated to get the, both the product strategy and the pricing strategy right to cater for that.

Tom:

And it could be mad, I, I'm sure a lot of product people would just be like, you're fucking crazy doing.

Tom:

I'm doing it, but what do you guys think?

Carlos:

Yeah,

Tom:

Gimme some.

Carlos:

Well, what springs to mind to me now, it's less of a utility and more, uh, of an education tool.

Carlos:

Because what I'm thinking of, like there's people who maybe do on pen and paper, and then there's people who have been so immersed in this work that they have their own styles of doing it, and they're, they're pushing the boundaries.

Carlos:

In a sense you are kind of what I hear pushing the boundaries.

Carlos:

Well, people can work and so there's this learning journey that people are going on in terms of how to structure and manage a business.

Carlos:

And it feels like this tool has a place for a person or a founder, a certain point of their education.

Tom:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And so I feel there's, you know, there's a need and I'm gonna call it a community of practice around this as well as a tool as well as and, and, and where there's even value just being part of that.

Carlos:

And so there's like this, there's bundle of utility education and connection that is the mission of maptio.

Carlos:

That's what I'm hearing.

Tom:

yeah.

Tom:

I, I really agree with that.

Tom:

And I think that's gonna be more and more a part of what we do, because I'm sort of seeing our home, the, the home kind of community for Mapt is amongst that community of practice who, who are on the same page as me and want to use it in that way.

Tom:

And using, making sure it's the perfect product that those people really love.

Tom:

'Cause if it's not what they really love, then I've done something, I've done something wrong.

Tom:

Um, and then secondarily catering for the other ones.

Tom:

But yeah, I've been trying a thing where I've made my, you know, so in my writing, like in my book or whatever, I'll lay out going, you know, this is the best of what I've learned and this is, this is what I'm passionate about.

Tom:

And if this is for you, then great.

Tom:

And if it's not, don't worry about it.

Tom:

But with the tool, I've sort of made the tool much more agnostic and, and much more open and flexible.

Tom:

So you can use it however you like.

Tom:

But then what I do is, so anyone who signs up for the tour, I say, oh, if you, if you're interested, you wanna ask me how I would suggest you use it, here's a little short video series that I created, which I called the Mini Mapping Masterclass.

Tom:

It's just a series of short videos that say, you know, this is what I would recommend, like as a coach or advisor to you, try doing it this way.

Tom:

But then people can take it or leave it, and some people watch the whole thing and they follow it and others will watch a couple and go, no, I don't get this, I don't like it, then they can use the tool however they like.

Tom:

And I kind of don't mind if some people use the tool, they don't use it the way I would suggest, but it's brought them in a bit closer to my ecosystem.

Tom:

And some of them will, will get, get on board with it, and others might not, but they might still buy a subscription, which still helps us to maintain the, and build the product.

Tom:

So that's my logic.

Tom:

But yeah, it is quite complicated.

Carlos:

Well, the message I'm getting from this is there's software, it's purely as a service.

Carlos:

In terms of like, uh, you know, Gmail or Dropbox or whatever that is.

Carlos:

And then there's software as a education tool to forward a mission.

Tom:

Mm.

Carlos:

And what you are buying there isn't just necessarily how, you know, the, the tool itself, but I become a better leader from using this tool.

Carlos:

And so I, I'm, for some whatever reason I'm thinking of Red Hat Linux, and this open source version that you can get and you don't have to pay for.

Carlos:

And then there's actually, I want to use this properly and because of that, I wanna pay for the consultancy, the software, the community, you know, there's a real thing, like in the same way that when you're talking about your services, I'm really committed to this now.

Tom:

Mm.

Carlos:

And I'm really committed to the Maptio way and I want to pay for more of the Maptio way.

Tom:

Yeah, I think that's really true.

Tom:

It loads more to figure out on that side of things.

Ben:

When, when you were talking there about, you know, uh, like product people would maybe say, this is kind of crazy doing it this way, I was actually kind of reminded of something you said right at the beginning where you were talking about kind of marketing and your approach to marketing actually is kind of offering up the things that you love and are feel are important and are motivated by.

Ben:

So it is an expression of you and it will kind of find, you know, therefore you find your way to the people for whom that resonates.

Tom:

Yeah.

Ben:

And in a sense that's the important thing with offering the product to, isn't it?

Ben:

It is an expression of what you think is important.

Ben:

Whilst you sort of talk about it being more of a sort of agnostic thing, it's, it's kind of coming from a similar place.

Ben:

And so in a sense, you know, is there right or wrong in the product?

Ben:

Is there right or wrong in the marketing?

Ben:

Well, no, in a sense because it's from that place, which you kind of feel, it's important for the reasons that you feel it's important and it is finding its way into the world from that start point.

Tom:

Yeah.

Tom:

I think, you know, there's, I think there's a great power and peril of the, sort of the building your product to scratch your own itch.

Tom:

'Cause I think when you do that, there's a, it comes from such an authentic place.

Tom:

You're like, I need this thing and I want it, and I, it's not some abstract thing that I am building for some supposed customer out there in the world.

Tom:

Um, so it's that deeper connection to it.

Tom:

But then you can't do it in a, in a bubble because you have, there has to then be a dialogue with the people who are potentially interested in that to give you the feedback you need.

Tom:

Because otherwise it might just be a product with a tiny market, which is definitely a risk for matio, which is one, sort of working on this, this other strategy that brings in a wider group of people, but hopefully in a way that's aligned and creates people who join the use case I would like them to use it for.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Well it's, I feel there's the creativity of the product itself and this kind of very.

Carlos:

Organic and just a new way of thinking.

Carlos:

And then there's a creativity of the pricing and the new way of pricing.

Carlos:

Uh, and then there's your own journey of learning and, and how you are just trying to feel your way into what's, what works for you.

Carlos:

And so in a sense, there's a bit of a red herring here in terms of like, oh, how do I price software?

Carlos:

Well, this is very much your own journey, nearly, and trying to find the best way that fits for you.

Carlos:

But the underlying message for me anyway is this, is this relationship to money.

Carlos:

It is that how do we provide value and get people to pay us in a way that they're happy, we're happy, and it creates some kind of benefit?

Carlos:

As opposed to some software's like is very numbers driven, it's like how can we structure the pricing in the best way that people buy the middle thing?

Carlos:

And so I think for anyone, for me anyway, for anyone listening, this is being more intentional.

Carlos:

Around this pricing stuff, which means being more aware of your own money stories and also being in a space, like you said, Tom, of abundance around it rather than scarcity, which is no mean feat.

Tom:

Amen to

Carlos:

that.

Carlos:

Cool.

Carlos:

Thank you very much.

Carlos:

If you have any more questions for Tom, um, where would you like to point them to if they want to get in touch with you?

Tom:

Uh, I can go to tomnixon.co.uk.

Tom:

My contact details are on there.

Tom:

Or LinkedIn.

Carlos:

Until next time, thank you very much everyone.

Carlos:

Thank you.

Carlos:

Cheers, Ben.

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