Episode 73
How to deal with your customer saying no
What's the first thing you do when a potential customer tells you that they don't want to work with you? Run and hide? Here's how it went…
You've had a great conversation. You've explained to them what you do and how experienced you are. They nodded and smiled and listened to everything you said. They even asked some questions. They then asked you to send them a proposal and a price.
You do that. And then tumbleweed.
A couple of days later you follow up with an email, and a couple of days after that they get back to you saying no. How does that feel? And what do you do?
For most people it feels like a punch in the gut – a painful rejection, particularly when the initial conversation felt so promising. And for most, after hearing such news, they put their tails between their legs and retreat.
But when is no really a no? And if it's really a no, what were the reasons for the no? Who knows?
On today's episode, Ben and Carlos share the things you need to do when you hear a no, so you can either turn it into a yes or find out the real reasons behind it. They also talk about the feelings that being told no can create and how we deal with them.
Links
Transcript
So, yeah, a mix of summer clubs.
Ben:Uh, Felix, our old one, he actually worked last week.
Ben:Oh.
Carlos:Now that's coming from Mr.
Carlos:Money.
Carlos:So the topic of today is how to deal with your customers, saying no, and, connected to that was, uh, yesterday within our community, uh, focused on the vision 2020 alumni, we are having this conversation around selling and.
Carlos:You go through a sales process with people and have a conversation, try and put some prices together, proposal or just an email to say, do you wanna, do, you wanna buy this thing?
Carlos:And then they come back and say no.
Carlos:Uh, and the various, the experience of that.
Carlos:Um, and then what to do with it.
Carlos:So there's, I think it'd be interesting to talk about, what you can do when a customer says no, what that means.
Carlos:But also I think what was quite interesting, the conversation yesterday, the experience.
Carlos:Of having someone say no to you.
Carlos:And then maybe we can also talk to how you can mitigate nos even before you have the conversation with people be
Ben:rejected less in childhood.
Carlos:Boom.
Carlos:So if you have a time machine.
Carlos:Or a DeLorean or your seven, or you're seven actually, all the parents out there who have children under the age of 10, get them on board.
Carlos:Their
Ben:sales
Carlos:training starts now.
Carlos:Exactly.
Carlos:Get them listening to this right now because it, it'll serve them in the future when they are asking for a pay rise or try to get paid A client.
Carlos:So that's, that's, that's definitely, uh, something important there.
Carlos:So we're gonna talk to that.
Carlos:and also the reason this topic actually came up is, we are in the process of selling various things.
Carlos:We have a happy, I'm gonna, I wanna call it Happy Money Mastermind.
Carlos:That kind of rolls off the tongue.
Carlos:I didn't, that didn't connect.
Carlos:I can see the logo now for the course.
Carlos:You wanna get paid?
Carlos:Happy Posting Master Happy Money Mastermind coming.
Carlos:Yes.
Carlos:So, you know, this, this is something we wanna launch, uh, in Autumn, ideally, uh, September or October.
Carlos:Um, and it's all about what we're gonna be talking about here.
Carlos:To be honest.
Carlos:Lots of this stuff.
Carlos:There's the s and strategies, and then there's stories beneath why you're not doing some of this stuff or how it.
Carlos:Uh, summer camp is coming up.
Carlos:We've got a handful of tickets coming up, and I'm like emailing people and communicating with them and people saying, no.
Carlos:Uh, we've got Vision 2020 coming up and, uh, there's that whole process as well of selling that.
Carlos:So selling is a big part of my life at the moment, and also some people in my momentum group.
Carlos:So it, it's a, it's a topic that I'm curious about.
Carlos:It's a topic that.
Carlos:We're trying to talk about here.
Carlos:It's a topic that's very alive within our community.
Carlos:So, and also, not only just the idea of selling, but to do it in a way that doesn't feel slimy.
Carlos:And I, I don't even use the word slimy, just doesn't feel energetic.
Carlos:Warmly energetic.
Carlos:So I'm gonna, as opposed to,
Ben:it might be energetic, but I just don't like that energy.
Carlos:Yes, that really uncomfortable energy.
Carlos:And I'm gonna bring Simon on board here as well now 'cause he, he's ready to talk to us.
Carlos:So, uh, Simon was part of this conversation yesterday.
Carlos:He's part of a happy Startup community.
Carlos:He's co-founder, better Builder, braver.
Carlos:He's written a book called Reframing Marketing.
Carlos:Uh, he runs an agency called Pal Digital.
Carlos:So he's done selling, he's done marketing, and he is done being turned down.
Carlos:what we're talking to specifically is that point.
Carlos:Where you've had maybe one conversation, maybe two conversations, you kind of felt like, yes, this is going somewhere.
Carlos:You thought there were positive signals, and then you reach out maybe that final time or that first or second time, okay, you ready to buy?
Carlos:And they say no, and then it's like, oh.
Carlos:And it's actually that point, you know, like what?
Carlos:More often than not.
Carlos:In my experience in the past when I used to do this stuff, 'cause I wasn't a trained salesperson, you'd be like, you know, I'm rubbish, I'm rubbish at this, and I've got rubbish product and, I need to change everything up.
Carlos:I was actually talking to someone over LinkedIn as well about their experience of this, uh, situation.
Carlos:Um, and it would be like, oh, I just have to sit and think, what do I need to go back with?
Carlos:What do I need to change with my product?
Carlos:so then they might buy that one, uh, another person was saying about their experience.
Carlos:So then writing the proposal, doing lots of free work, giving Krenn free creative ideas, sending the proposal, and then nothing, just complete silence.
Carlos:So that's, I think just painting a picture of the feeling when we hear a no.
Carlos:what is that telling us Other than you.
Carlos:Shit.
Carlos:And I don't,
Ben:I was gonna go with that.
Ben:You're bad.
Ben:You're worthless.
Ben:Whatcha doing?
Ben:Wasting my time.
Ben:Whatcha you wasting your own time for?
Ben:That's what it means.
Ben:It means pack up, go home, or don't ever leave the house.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Don't, you're not an entrepreneur.
Carlos:You don't know how to do business.
Carlos:Yeah.
Ben:Stop.
Ben:You always knew you were useless and you are right.
Ben:Validated.
Ben:Okay.
Carlos:So maybe tell a couple of alternative scenarios.
Ben:well, uh, actually the first thing that was coming to my.
Ben:The different scenarios are many different scenarios, like you've made reference to whether I've had, you know, whether one has had formal sales training or not.
Ben:And, uh, of course most sensible people, of course, have not had sales training, uh, because it sounds like a horrendous thing to do that basically estate agents would do.
Ben:Uh, and so it was like, well, clearly I'm not gonna do that.
Ben:But all of that said there is really useful stuff for people who teach it well.
Ben:Uh, like somebody who I sort of learn from is like this super old school American guy called Zig Ziglar.
Ben:And he was like, he was a, he was like a sort of door to door salesman.
Ben:In the kind of time of peak sales, like, you know, 1970s, 1980s, you know, he sold pots and pans and whatever else door to door, which obviously for many people sounds like sort of horrendous selling, but he also actually has a tremendously kind of, sort of heartfelt view of it and what's
Ben:happening in the interaction, what's happening when you are there, and how, you know, and, and a real sort of deep appreciation of course, that.
Ben:Stories and ideas and things that we, the seller bring to that conversation, that transaction.
Ben:And there's all the stories and whatever that the buyer brings to that transaction.
Ben:And that, you know, the, it's a dance, right?
Ben:So you need to, you're trying to find the place where there's some sort of symbiotic kind of link with what you are saying, what you are talking about, the story that you are telling with how and where that, that meets.
Ben:Uh.
Ben:Metaphor table.
Ben:Uh, and, um, he, uh, you know, he, he kind of makes reference and a lot of that to things which are sort of cliched selling ideas.
Ben:Like no, doesn't mean no, it means don't know.
Ben:Right.
Ben:And so essentially all, he's kind of, sort of talking about that.
Ben:Bear in mind, obviously his livelihood at that point was.
Ben:Dependent his ability to sell, you know, some sort of rural living farm family in Tennessee.
Ben:A whole load of pot
Ben:ral.
Ben:You know, to basically find the people who do want to buy that or find the trigger, that means said family wants to buy it because that was his livelihood, his ability to eat and function and do all of those things was better.
Ben:So the kind of things like the classic sort of cliche, like I said, that no doesn't mean no, it means don't know.
Ben:And really all you're saying with that is the, the person you're speaking to doesn't yet understand.
Ben:It is that you're talking about doesn't yet understand how it really, sort of, how it benefits me, the person who's, who's buying.
Ben:And of course that then links with, you know, we're kind of pricing all the, the example that you gave, uh, where you're talking.
Ben:So on LinkedIn they're saying, you've done all of this work.
Ben:And they put all of this thought and all of this energy, blah, blah, and they get nothing back.
Ben:In a way, it's because the person that doesn't yet understand how it benefits them doesn't yet understand how it kind of fits together via the lens that they see.
Ben:Which is the danger of course, of doing a huge amount of work.
Ben:'cause there's an element of kind of guessing and our task is to find the place where we meet that person.
Ben:And so, no, you know, is a no can mean lots of different things.
Ben:I guess it can be a signal that they don't yet understand.
Ben:It could be a signal that actually maybe they're really not right for the thing that you are offering.
Ben:Uh, and also useful to do that.
Ben:One of the other things that I will shut up in a minute is that actually no is a much more useful thing than it's the Dunno bits that really sort of kill us because.
Ben:Some of our energy remains in the game with the, don't know, with the, you know, with the person who's ghosting you somewhat or is Army.
Ben:Yeah, I am interested.
Ben:I am interested, but Oh, next week, oh, next month kind of thing.
Ben:Some of our energy remains invested in that, and while some of our energy remains invested in that, it's very difficult for us to pick ourselves up and go for whatever the, the next thing.
Ben:So actually no, in a way is a real useful because it's a line in the sand that says the conversation up to this point.
Ben:Uh, and so either I now have a choice to either basically work out is is there a thing I need to more better understand about the person I'm talking to, to find a way that it, the thing that I might, the thing that I have fits with them, or, but it, it's the no invites a deliberate actual next step knows.
Ben:You just dunno.
Ben:So you're basically kind of remain invested for kind of whatever reason.
Ben:So I guess that's a quite long and rambling kind of thing around.
Ben:No, the one little other thing I would say is, I definitely felt no, quite like as a kind of, as like a personal rejection.
Ben:We were talking about this like with the, the kind of playground thing, and I think I felt no, as a real.
Ben:But my, uh, response to that when I wasn't really aware that that's kind of what's happening.
Ben:I didn't, so, I didn't like no, clearly, because no was a personal, you know, I was feeling as a personal rejection of me.
Ben:And my response to that, in a way was to try and sell hard.
Ben:I trying persuade them to like me.
Ben:Uh, which of course was like the, the kind of the unwise response, unwise response.
Ben:It's the two sides to all of this.
Ben:Something is happening emotionally that is important to know what our responses and why our response is what it is, because that will shape what our sort of reaction to that is.
Ben:And you know, going back to the Zig Ziglar thing, you know there's two people coming together, two parties coming together, and each are coming with their own stories.
Ben:Might be stories I tell myself about me might be stories I tell myself about my company.
Ben:Likewise, the person on the other side is doing that and there is, it's, you know, it's a dance to find the place where we most beneficially meet.
Simon:Yeah, I think the, the thing we'd know is that AF when we first started selling, so when I first started trying to sell stuff, when we set up the agency, we did take no quite personally because we could clearly see that this is exactly what the client needed and the fact they weren't buying it was a personal affront to the fact that we knew best it bit of sales work with a coach.
Simon:We realize that that isn't what selling's all about at all.
Simon:And in fact, sometimes if you go into a sale looking for the no, then you, you, you'll never get to it because you're asking the questions and you are listening so hard that actually you'd get through the conversation to the point where they're like, so should we just do this?
Simon:Because you've, you've listened rather.
Simon:I flipped my selling sort of mindset to be go in looking for the no, and then if they really want it, they will buy it from you.
Simon:And that sort of worked quite well.
Simon:But what is really interesting in, in reference to the BB, B thing, when we, um, so the community we set up, and that's a sort of fairly baseline, it's join.
Simon:Much of a sales process there.
Simon:It's like you either read the website, watch the videos, get our vibe and wanna hang out with us, and it's a low price point, or you don't, you know that there's no selling there.
Simon:What we did do is create a program that was a group program for small group of coaches who we thought were at a certain stage and what we do, they develop what we were.
Simon:Everyone was like, yeah, this sounds great.
Simon:This sounds really good.
Simon:It's really fun.
Simon:Brilliant.
Simon:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Simon:And then we'd say, cool.
Simon:Said, do you wanna do it?
Simon:No.
Simon:Oh, okay.
Simon:Well, why isn't that?
Simon:And there's a really good question that I learned from a sales coach.
Simon:I think it was Andy Bounds, who's, um, a really fun person to follow on LinkedIn.
Simon:And his question is, well, what's your plan if you don't do this?
Simon:And it just opens the door and it gives permission for the person on the other end of the conversation to sort of explain their thinking.
Simon:And basically, all of the coaches who we approached consistently said, I'm just not ready for it yet, but it sounds like exactly what I need in about three months or in about six months.
Simon:What I need right now is this.
Simon:So they weren't, and, and helping not have asked that question, we would've just got a no and been like, oh.
Simon:Wants what we're selling, why doesn't anyone want what we're selling?
Simon:What we realized was we were just selling the right thing, but at the wrong time.
Simon:So we adjusted what we were offering to those coaches and actually came up with a whole new thing for them to do while they were getting ready to do the other thing.
Simon:So by listening, we kind of got there
Carlos:just to let, well, to help Are you able to describe what you were selling initially and then what you ended up selling afterwards?
Simon:Yes.
Simon:So essentially.
Simon:Who are wanting to put themselves out there, uh, and get their marketing either going or improved essentially.
Simon:So we help people either start off or refine what they're doing in terms of marketing.
Simon:So we offer a marketing course, which is what people work through, and it's a self-paced video course.
Simon:We then do sort of at
Simon:offered essentially how.
Simon:Expand your product ecosystem.
Simon:So to go from maybe just doing one to one to adding group work or something else on top, maybe a video course or maybe a book on top of that.
Simon:And then we were also looking at trying to work through getting a content workflow going and also, um, refining your kind of methodology and how you talk about that.
Simon:So it's quite sort of advanced marketing essentially.
Simon:Everybody we spoke to really liked the idea of that advanced marketing, but what they felt was, I haven't got the basics sorted.
Simon:So we did two things.
Simon:We went back to the video course and added some check in sessions that are in person, so in person on Zoom so that coaches can get together and they can hear that actually everybody's kind of at the same level or everybody's working through the same things.
Simon:They don't feel quite so siloed.
Simon:That really improved our offering around the course.
Simon:But what it also enabled us to do was to take the temperature every couple of weeks of where is everybody at and is anybody actually ready for this advanced stuff?
Simon:And what we found out was no.
Simon:Really wanted was help in a smaller group getting what they working.
Simon:So that's what we offered.
Simon:So in a sense, in, in essence, all we did was dial back a bit on the.
Simon:Which I'll be honest, just made it a lot easier to deliver because we weren't having to teach new things or advance concepts or you know, deep dive with people.
Simon:Actually, really what people wanted was just, I just want someone to like chase me to write that blog, to post that video, to do that thing.
Simon:I just need to kick up the ass every couple of weeks and then I want someone to tell me, is that good enough?
Simon:Is that right?
Simon:Is this.
Simon:By trying to sell 'em something and then asking what they were gonna do if they didn't do it.
Simon:They basically told us what they wanted and it just turned out that most people said the same thing.
Simon:So it helped us reshape what our, our offer essentially.
Carlos:That's fascinating.
Carlos:For me, there's two aspects to that.
Carlos:Firstly, what you just said is like, I try and sell you one thing, or I try and sell one thing, but in the process of selling that thing, I realize what I need to sell you.
Carlos:As opposed to trying to work out what is the perfect thing to sell and never actually selling anything.
Carlos:And because of that, never knowing what to sell.
Carlos:Um, so, and that, that talks
Ben:a lot to what, like, the Vision 2020 stuff was about the importance of experimenting or that mindset of you.
Ben:It's kind of like, you know, in a, it's like you've gotta be in contact with people.
Ben:This, this, this, or, and I'm getting the the know, oh, you know what?
Ben:If you don't do this, but if you're not sort of offering stuff and putting yourself out there somewhat and being in dialogue, then you are never gonna kind of give yourself the source material to know actually the thing that they wanna buy.
Carlos:And I think that for me is a useful story.
Carlos:What.
Carlos:Simon shed, for anyone listening who's just at the beginning of their business, you know, with the new ideas, the new products, new service, maybe they are experienced business people, experienced professionals, but they just haven't sold this thing before.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:And they have a concept of what it is.
Carlos:And the other element to this that I was, I found interesting is, or the way I reflect on it, is the belief that the customer had of doing the thing that you were telling them to do.
Carlos:They're believing that they would get the value of it, even though it sounded valuable, whether it would be valuable to them was connected to their idea whether they could actually achieve it.
Carlos:And so, yeah.
Carlos:Another part of this for me, for anyone listening is like, you may be selling something that looks amazing on paper and actually sounds everyone's nodding at you and say, yeah, that's good.
Carlos:That's great.
Carlos:Isn't that it's not bad, it's just the person that you're talking to doesn't believe that they can achieve the results that you're selling to them.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Carlos:So why would you pay for something you don't think you believe that you can achieve?
Carlos:Not that because the person who's selling is a bad salesperson or the per the product or service you're offering isn't bad.
Carlos:It's just,
Simon:And I.
Simon:You're offering and we, we, we do this in the agency, so it's, a lot of it is about meeting the client where they are now.
Simon:So quite often clients will come to us and say, oh, we really need help with our SEO.
Simon:We're like, Hmm, okay.
Simon:Oddly specific, but fair enough.
Simon:And the first conversation is, well, what is it about your SEO that's wrong?
Simon:And generally what they want is a new website, but they just dunno how to ask for that.
Simon:Just like, well, the website isn't coming up in search and when people get there, all the stuff that's on it just isn't really any good.
Simon:Sounds like you just need a new website, doesn't it?
Simon:I guess we could.
Simon:So it's that thing of them seeing the value.
Simon:If you just jump straight in with, you need new website, you need an EO strategy, you need content, you need ads, you need email marketing, you need that.
Simon:And they'd be like, that's a, we weren't expecting to all today.
Simon:I didn't into this expecting, I.
Simon:Whereas if you take it the other way and you know, someone comes to us and says, oh, I really need to help with some Google ads, it's like, okay, is that to get leads?
Simon:And yes, generally, okay, I need some leads.
Simon:Great, well why are you getting any leads?
Simon:And you work it back.
Simon:And actually what, what they really want is they want the content, the website updated, but they didn't know that.
Simon:They didn't just.
Simon:Someone going on a journey from not knowing who you are to wanting to work with you.
Simon:They're like, oh, yeah, yeah.
Simon:Cool.
Simon:That's exactly it.
Simon:Can you make that journey for us?
Simon:And then it's just a totally different conversation.
Carlos:What you're describing there for me is particularly helpful for, consultants and custom solutions in a sense, or something where you can provide a range of solutions for a particular customer.
Carlos:And so maybe you could do website, maybe you could do SEO strategy, maybe you could do copy.
Carlos:There's lots of things.
Carlos:But as, as someone who can do many things, you are trying to find out what is the real problem here.
Carlos:You're trying to solve and we'll tackle that.
Carlos:And so this process of selling in a sense is like you narrowing down on what is the, what is the thing of value?
Carlos:Then this other scenario where I just do this thing, you know, for instance, I run a group coaching program for founders and professionals who wanna take a new path.
Carlos:That's exciting.
Carlos:No, that's all I, I'm not gonna give you anything else.
Carlos:That's all I, I'm not gonna tailor it.
Carlos:So this is the journey.
Carlos:And so I go to someone and I say, this is it.
Carlos:Do you want it?
Carlos:Say, oh, that sounds interesting.
Carlos:Do you wanna buy it?
Carlos:No.
Carlos:It's like, ah, okay.
Carlos:What do I do next?
Ben:Yeah, I mean, that feels to me that, I think part of the issue in that is because that's also pretty vague, right?
Ben:Oh, it's a founder program, program, blah.
Ben:We'll call him, uh, might be super clear in his mind what the value and purpose of that is, but if I'm coming at that sort of cult-ish or even lukewarm, it's like, hmm, I don't know.
Ben:Do I fully get this?
Ben:Do, am I that person?
Ben:Am I there yet to kind of sort of, oh, that sounds good, but that doesn't really sound like me.
Ben:That sounds like.
Ben:The person who's kind of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever it might be.
Ben:And so I think, you know, it still feels like the assumption that we have is that this is a thing and therefore it's clear whether you want it or not.
Ben:I guess.
Ben:So let's go the way back to Zig pots and pans, right?
Ben:So surely it's pretty clear whether you want pot or pans or not.
Ben:Body of work, which is many, many, many books and teachings is, it's never that clear.
Ben:It's never that clear.
Ben:And actually even with pots and pans, which are just, you know, they're pots and pans, you know, it's not coaching programs, whatever.
Ben:This is like pots and pans.
Ben:It's like surely there is no ambiguity around whether or not I want or need pots and pans.
Ben:But everything you know is.
Ben:There are stories I'm telling myself, there are stories that the bird is telling myself, and actually there is complexity.
Ben:It's like any decision that we make is a decision that initially we make emotionally and we justify rationally.
Ben:And so at the heart of every decision is an emotional stirring.
Ben:And so whether it is a pots and pans, whether it's a coaching program, whether it's trying to get some people into my business via leads or whatever it might be, there's an emotional stirring at the heart of that.
Ben:And I think we sort of ignore that at our peril.
Ben:And I don't just mean because A, that's how people decide, but also that is what's happening in the kind of heart mind of the person.
Ben:On the other side of the table, however, sort of clear our thing might be, we're dealing with the stuff of emotion, which is a kind of bubbling, unclear, sort of melting pot of stuff.
Carlos:I love the use of melting pot while selling pots and pans, by the way.
Carlos:Very good.
Ben:Thank you.
Ben:Thank you.
Ben:The pan didn't melt.
Ben:Lemme be clear.
Ben:So
Carlos:I, I, I have a little bit of a story I think around, this doesn't talk specifically to the emotions bit, but I think it'll talk to the, the lack of relevance.
Carlos:How you know, is that me?
Carlos:And maybe you can, I think I'd like to talk about the emotions a bit in a bit a minute.
Carlos:So, you know, we had someone, actually friend of ours who's done happy pricing as well as Vision 2020, Beth Derry, and she says, I always loved your stuff.
Carlos:I never considered myself a Startup.
Carlos:And so a, our name got in the.
Carlos:This person I was talking to Exchange, having an exchange on LinkedIn.
Carlos:The immediate thing was like, I need to change the product.
Carlos:You know, I need to change how it worked and what it did, blah, blah, blah.
Carlos:Or you know, I had to rethink what I was gonna offer them.
Carlos:Sometimes it isn't even that.
Carlos:Sometimes as simple as like, I don't identify, like you said, Ben, with the journey you are taking people on.
Carlos:I don't see how that's relevant to me.
Carlos:I don't see where I'm gonna get to.
Carlos:In the case of us is like, it's the, the onus is on myself and Lawrence to explain, given the person you are and the things, and Simon shared this before, I think maybe it's a conversation yesterday, given where you want to be, given where you are now and the journey you need to go on, this is gonna be good for you because of that.
Carlos:If I was gonna like take it down to pots of pans, it's like if I'm someone who doesn't believe I'm a good cook or I boil an egg in a frying pan, it'd be like, do you know what?
Carlos:It would be so much easier if you had this pot because you could have more eggs and water.
Carlos:You know, you, this is what I'm trying to talk to.
Carlos:It's like there's this education piece to make it feel like what's possible because of the product or what's.
Carlos:Isn't anything to do with changing what you're selling.
Carlos:It is just giving it more context and relevance to the person you're selling to.
Carlos:That's how I'm understanding what you're talking about.
Ben:I would basically really suggest to anybody who's listening to check out Zig Ziglar's stuff.
Ben:It's really good.
Ben:And actually he was, uh, Seth Godin, a lot of Seth Godin basically credit Zig Ziglar with doing the work that he does because, uh, Zig Ziglar was kind of his reference point.
Ben:And as he spoke about one of the first people who really just started to kind of talk around the sort of complexity of all of these, of all of this and understanding that all of these things are deeply human, they're deeply emotional.
Ben:It's about, it's about the kind of connection.
Ben:So, uh, I would, I would invite people to check out, check out that stuff.
Ben:But ' cause it does to what you were saying there, um, it's, you know, it's not necessarily about changing the thing, it's about understanding the context in which somebody's trying to understand
Simon:it.
Simon:I think the, the other thing that really come came up for me when you're talking about the program, for example, is so with you selling the program, but even if we go like right to the other end of the price point scale, when I'm talking to people about my book, like 12 Quid a book.
Simon:You say, you know, you have a great chat with someone.
Simon:Do you wanna do your marketing?
Simon:Blah, blah, blah.
Simon:We go through the whole chat, do you wanna buy the book?
Simon:No.
Simon:You're like, it's 12 quid, mate, come on.
Simon:You've just told me all of this stuff.
Simon:It's like, but then I have to remember, they're not saying no to the book.
Simon:They're saying no to the work.
Simon:' cause they know that in that book it's, it's not just a nice book of photos for a coffee table.
Simon:In that book is change in that book is tension, is possibility is work.
Simon:To me when I get a no, I'm just saying.
Simon:Right.
Simon:You've gotta, you've that, that's just another person for the list, for the, for the, until they feel ready to do that work.
Simon:And it's, it's not personal.
Simon:They're not saying no absolute, no interest in book.
Simon:They're just saying deep breath.
Simon:I'm not ready to do that work yet.
Simon:I might be, but not yet.
Simon:And it's, that I think is interesting.
Simon:I
Carlos:really like that.
Carlos:That's really good.
Carlos:I like that idea is like they're not, they're just not ready for the work.
Carlos:Um, and that, and also what I'm hearing is they're not ready for the change.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:And that will mean in their lives or the things that they will have to maybe learn, unlearn the impact that that will create.
Carlos:Um, I'm, I'm coaching someone at the moment who wants to help agency, agency founders move to sas, so going from agency business to SaaS business.
Carlos:And one of the issues he's, it sounds like for many of them is like they're not ready to change their model.
Carlos:They're, they're, they're very, you know, they're, they're clinging onto the time equals money.
Carlos:It's the fear of letting go.
Carlos:Fear of letting go.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:What happens if it doesn't
Ben:work?
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Mm.
Carlos:So again, talks to this emotional part that Ben is alluding to.
Carlos:Like, it's not necessarily the nuts and bolts of the process that are wrong, it's just like this person isn't ready.
Carlos:Whether that's intellectually, emotionally, or maybe just a time of their life, whatever it is.
Carlos:I wanted to, I've got a few minutes left because I wanted to touch on a couple, another thing before we go onto the emotional aspect of it and where that might be, you know, maybe talking through that a bit, the difference between selling and marketing, because here's my
Carlos:hypothesis is like the more of the wrong people that you talk to or you sell to, the more nos you will get and what you're saying there, um.
Carlos:Simon is like, if you get a no because they're not ready for the work, then you need to find eight people who are ready for the work, or these people need to wait until they're ready for the work.
Carlos:So I just wanted to just maybe given your experience as someone who's, who talks a lot about marketing this difference between the selling and marketing bit that you know, you would be able, how would you describe it?
Simon:So I think the selling and marketing are different.
Simon:They are often in big corporates, the same department, sales and marketing, but essentially they are different.
Simon:So a sort of analogy I would use is marketing is getting someone in front of the shop and selling is getting 'em to buy something once they're in.
Simon:It's marketing is all about getting someone to a point where they are wanting to make a purchase, and to me, selling is that bit where you make them the promise of what they're gonna get.
Simon:And sometimes you can extend sales back into marketing and try and sell while you should be marketing.
Simon:And I think sometimes you can approach your marketing as just a really long sales process, and I think for different people at different times, those two things can work.
Simon:But for a lot of people, I speak to coaches and consultants predominantly, or people who are selling themselves and what they do, then actually that just doesn't work.
Simon:So for me, marketing is getting people curious and
Simon:change.
Simon:And how from where they are now to where they want to be, there is a bridge in the middle of that, which is the process of working with you.
Simon:So when someone understands that, they're then ready to do the work because they understand what's coming.
Simon:They understand what's, what's what it's all about, and they think that.
Simon:I wanna where Simon is talking about being, that is the I be, so how can I.
Simon:They're actually inviting a sale.
Simon:Tell me how I can work with you.
Simon:So it might be that you've got a book, you do one-to-one you do group work is the kind of more traditional group, but you might also have, you know, a cohort based program.
Simon:You might also be selling a video course.
Simon:There's loads of different things you can sell, obviously.
Simon:But the point is, at that point people are then interested in.
Simon:that's when you start to get those weird or abrupt nos.
Carlos:Hmm.
Ben:Um, and it's okay.
Ben:It's not a problem.
Ben:As, as I found selling the book actually hawking the book face to face.
Ben:You get, you get the experience that really like viscerally.
Ben:And actually it's quite good fun in a way because it just encourages me to be like, Nope, back to it.
Ben:More videos, more social.
Ben:You gotta get people excited and curious because the more curious people are.
Ben:Then they come back once they've go and not thought of it like that.
Ben:I think I'm ready to do this work.
Ben:I can do the change.
Ben:I feel ready for this.
Carlos:One of the things you mentioned yesterday and also someone else on the call was, when I know what I want, I just buy it.
Carlos:I, and you've said this as well, I think Ben, it's like you don't sell to people.
Carlos:They, they know that they want something.
Carlos:They get to a point where they know that's what they want and you just, if you are lucky, you're at the right place at the right time and you can offer it to them.
Carlos:So I think another thing I want us to maybe touch on before we go into the thought, the feeling aspect of it is, so there's this idea of something being valuable and then there's being able to pay the amount of money you want them to pay.
Carlos:Are they one and the same thing?
Simon:I think, no, they're paying the price and the value.
Simon:It's really interesting.
Simon:Like we, we sometimes have people say to us, that's, that's really expensive.
Simon:And then comeback for.
Simon:Well, I don't hear that very often.
Simon:Why would you say that?
Simon:What are you comparing it to?
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Simon:And then let them get their pricing ladder out in front of you in their market.
Simon:You know what I mean?
Simon:And try and backwards convert.
Simon:Oh, well, I'm comparing it to the, and just see how they got to the word expensive, essentially.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Simon:You know, and let.
Simon:Gets to the point where they're like, well, I guess it's not that expensive.
Simon:When you put it like that.
Simon:They're kind of like, you know what I mean?
Simon:So I think the price and the value are that it's the seesaw, isn't it?
Simon:You've got the value you are offering and the price you are charging, and basically both of you sit on the seesaw till it balances, and then you shake hands and it's done.
Simon:But at some point your price is too high and their value, they don't, you know what I mean?
Simon:It's like seesawing around, is how I always visualize it.
Carlos:I, I think what I wanted to just communicate to anyone listening is, again, it isn't so simple.
Carlos:It isn't so simple that you say a price and they say, no, I'm not gonna pay.
Carlos:And it isn't because they don't believe it's necessarily valuable because I wanna, I think an element of this is, is capacity to pay.
Carlos:Mm.
Carlos:And uh, the example that's ringing in my ears is yesterday someone was talking about, I've got this thing and I want to charge corporates this much, and I want to charge charities this much.
Carlos:Just because the price is less.
Carlos:Does that mean the value is less?
Carlos:to most people, lower price potentially means lower value because what we told say on the pricing course price is a signal.
Carlos:If it's.
Carlos:Rule of thumb is high value.
Carlos:And so I think there's something, the nuance I just wanted to introduce for people who are listening is like, it isn't so simple, and that's why, like you said, Simon, conversations are so important.
Carlos:Really understanding where someone's coming from is so important.
Carlos:The framework that they're working with is so important.
Carlos:So there's more to do here than just go back to the drawing board and rebuild your product or service and then try and sell it again.
Carlos:I
Simon:mean, that, that's a drastic move.
Carlos:And, and unfortunately, I think that's what a lot of people would do, because that's a safer thing to do than have a conversation.
Carlos:It's more expensive, it's more laborious, it's more challenging.
Carlos:But for many people that's, that feels safer.
Carlos:'cause they don't have to be challenged as such, or they don't have to have a difficult conversation and.
Simon:So that conversation not provoking, no, but like looking for it, like giving people the opportunity to love to voice that.
Simon:I love you
Carlos:saying this because this is nicely transitioning to the final thing that I'd like to talk about.
Carlos:What it feels like, like Ben was saying, to get a no.
Carlos:Or what it feels like to search for a no and the challenging feelings around that.
Carlos:And the challenging feelings around talking about money, because this is all I feel all connected.
Carlos:What I'd like to communicate here is like, it isn't just Get your offer.
Carlos:Right.
Carlos:Find the right person, market.
Carlos:And there's other things involved that are less tangible than just the, the tactics and the strategies.
Ben:Well, in a way, I think these are maybe like the only global rules actually.
Ben:And because you and I cast, we were chatting on, uh, earlier about the jerry, the reboot stuff.
Ben:We were talking about his retreats.
Ben:Uh, and, uh, so in his, a lot of his writing in his book.
Ben:Essentially he does distill the work of the founder, the entrepreneur, whatever.
Ben:Well, so that being the arena in which he works, but actually he does point to, you know, what he would say are the kind of global truths, which actually at the heart is a just need for love, safety, and belonging.
Ben:And essentially this is, you know, when we strip away everything else, that's what.
Ben:I need to feel loved.
Ben:I need to feel safe, and I need to feel like we belong.
Ben:And actually, so in a way, you know, you were making the sort of exclusion about kind of groceries, but this is it, right?
Ben:So this is the thing that turns up, like I was talking about my example, the kind of, you know, reacting to a no was because my feeling, you know, my kind of need for and feeling of safety or belonging.
Ben:Or kind of being was kind of compromised, was challenged, and Simon was talking about, you know, wading in too quickly and getting a defensive.
Ben:No, because that's actually what it is, which is somebody else saying, fuck off out my space.
Ben:Like, I don't feel safe now.
Ben:Do you know what I mean?
Ben:And so, in a sense, this, this dance, this, you know, just our most kind of, you know, rudimentary, primal things that need for love, safety, and belonging pops up.
Ben:Sort of in everything pops up when we're talking about money or not talking about money pops up in when we, how we think about our product.
Ben:Don't think about our product pops up when we're talking to people, when we are selling them.
Ben:Something pops up when we're buying something in a way pops up when we're having conversations with our co-founders, whatever it may be.
Ben:And so it's like, actually in a way, this is the kind of, this is the, the kind of the stuff of all of our lives.
Ben:Our work and what happens in our work and what happens around talking about money.
Ben:But in a way, I think what he speaks to in, you know, in his book and the kind of writing all the stuff around reboot actually it sort of nails it really, you know, love, safety, and belonging.
Simon:I think it's really easy to take a no personally, and I think there is a certain amount of it.
Simon:Is, is okay to take personally, it's, you know, you, you are being vulnerable in some senses.
Simon:When you're putting yourself out there and you are offering something to someone and to get a, it's not quite right or no is, is, is a rejection.
Simon:So I think there's, there, there is definitely an acknowledgement of the fact that there can be a feeling there.
Simon:Lingering on it or making that feeling, the predominant thing that you come away from a conversation with is, is something you can get used to.
Simon:and not to dismiss anybody's feelings here, but to say like, actually, let's try and, you know, change that perspective round and what, what am I hearing here?
Simon:You know, if we think of that nonviolent communication thing are saying in the.
Simon:Four.
Simon:What else is around there?
Simon:What else did they say in that conversation?
Simon:What did I hear there?
Simon:And as we've said, if, if you ask the right questions and you go into the sales conversation listening, that entire conversation is building up to whether they're gonna go for it or not.
Simon:And sometimes if you know they're not gonna go for it, you can just learn all of the other things they're.
Simon:Make your offer better and stronger for those, right, for, and I think really necessarily a, if someone goes cold, then they've obviously got cold feet and then it's about.
Simon:Bringing them back, which is probably a whole other episode.
Simon:But, um, I think, I think the, the feeling bit is important to really kind of get hold of and think, well, am I gonna let them know be the thing that drives the next sale, or am I gonna be, you know, am, am I gonna be like nervous and hold myself back because I don't.
Simon:So much for telling me what you've shared there.
Simon:You know, I'm gonna go away and think about it.
Simon:I'm gonna, it's right.
Simon:Yeah.
Simon:I think, um, there's a, an interesting perspective on, never split the difference by Chris.
Simon:Absolutely in that's, I mean, that's a whole world of, I mean, he, he's a terrorist negotiator for the Earth's FBI and his book on to how have a negotiation is fascinating.
Simon:I think there's some, some real gems in there about.
Simon:getting a no on a sale is one thing, but getting a no from a hostage situation is, is quite another.
Simon:And how he manages to ride through some very high stress situations.
Carlos:so what I'm hearing around this is as well as the kind of cognitive learning journey to knowing how to sell, there's, I'm gonna call it the embodied experience.
Carlos:Uh, and this, the spaces in between reaction and response.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:How it feels.
Carlos:And as human beings, I would hope that it's always going to feel, there is going to be some sense of feeling there.
Carlos:Just what you do, that feeling in the moment.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Whether you them down by the neck and say, please like me.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:You find another way that it is, and I, I, I can, I love the reframing of love, safety, and belonging, um, in terms of this interaction.
Carlos:Because when I think about belonging, I think about that story about Beth and saying, I'm not a Startup.
Carlos:So there was no belonging there in order for her to make that purchase or that interaction work.
Carlos:Safety.
Carlos:It's like, do I know?
Carlos:Am I gonna get to the place I'm gonna get to?
Carlos:Am I actually gonna be able to do the work or is it gonna be like a whole waste of money?
Carlos:And the love bit is like, do you actually care about me?
Carlos:Are you actually spending time understanding my context, what I want, where I want to get to?
Carlos:What's the difficulties?
Carlos:That, that for me, so like a great way to just frame how we think about selling, not just how can I make more money this person.
Carlos:Thank you, both of you, have a good one.
Carlos:Bye-Bye ladies.
