Episode 74

3 years of Happy Pricing in 25 minutes

Carlos and Ben wrap up their Happy Pricing podcast series with a look back on what they’ve learned, and take a moment to think about what’s next.

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Transcript
Carlos:

someone called deleted user who's posted a message they've prepared user.

Carlos:

That's me.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

They said, how could I miss the last half episode?

Carlos:

Thank you very much for joining us.

Carlos:

so I, I, I'm sitting with this single Yeah, I'm really interested and curious about what it means to sell stuff, price stuff, build a business within this current system.

Carlos:

And at the same time as I'm, I'm learning this system isn't necessarily fit for purpose anymore.

Carlos:

Yeah, or has, has brought us to a place where actually we need to find another way to move forward.

Ben:

because the, um, the, the hospice modernity idea, uh, the Vanessa thing, it sort of started with her being sure we're talking about something.

Ben:

It

Ben:

started with her being asked to, uh, give a talk at a conference, uh, about the future of education.

Ben:

And her reflection was, what the fuck?

Ben:

A future of education, like what is education?

Ben:

Brilliant.

Ben:

So she said, I think this was all sort of leading up to the time around the pandemic, and she said that she would only do it if you had some, she had freedom to kind of run it as she would.

Ben:

And so she started it with a thought experiment, which is imagining this, you know, this conference is happening I think in 2046.

Ben:

Uh, and so what might be going on in 2046?

Ben:

Uh, as, as a way of kind of working backwards and the scenario that she paints for what might be going on in 2046, having sort of joined some threads up to today is a pretty shocking scenario, uh, of, you know, a kind of radically reduced, um, global population.

Ben:

I think like, radically because, and like all of these kind of threads that go back to today, which actually seem really, really plausible when you kind of sort of stitch everything kind of back.

Ben:

And so her thing was, well, what would the, what would the kind of future of education, what would we be debating if it was 2046 based on these hypothesis, these hypotheses playing out?

Ben:

Uh, and so it's a pretty kind of full on intensive.

Ben:

And she does kind of make, you know, kind of unapologetically say, look, really, this is quite full on and intense and it's not gonna be for you if you know these A, B, C, these kind of things.

Ben:

But it, it is quite a sort of, you know, intense and shocking thing

Carlos:

if, if you really love your grande lattes,

Ben:

really they're fine.

Ben:

Don't

Ben:

choice in 46.

Carlos:

Well, if you're interested in, uh, uh, Vanessa, Vanessa Macha Oliveira.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

Uh, and her book about hospice and modernity.

Carlos:

And you are feeling quite resilient and strong.

Carlos:

And

Ben:

interestingly, Google Voices speaks the book for, uh, on Audible.

Carlos:

Oh wow.

Carlos:

Okay.

Carlos:

He's got a wonderful reading voice.

Carlos:

I think I.

Carlos:

So having started off with the, the slow decline of.

Carlos:

Late stage capitalism and thinking about how we structure society in a more connected way.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

Um, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about late stage, happy pricing

Carlos:

and what it means for the future.

Carlos:

What we thought we'd do is, uh, with, as a, as a way to close well to, to, um, honor the work that we've been doing now, but instead of three years that we've been doing this stuff, I think it might well be, yeah, three years.

Carlos:

I thought it would be useful just to talk to how, how this all came about.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

What, um, how it started.

Carlos:

So for those, for people who maybe just have an idea thinking about creating something, how does.

Carlos:

We can talk to our journey of building this thing and then how, how sometimes things have its time and making a conscious decision to make some, to bring something to a close.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And so celebrating and I just realized there's 50 episodes of the Happy 50 because

Ben:

every time we've started this, you would come up with this random number about Series eight thing this out or the other.

Ben:

But now we're on actually like a round number.

Carlos:

Yeah, the big five, which is ironic given it's also.

Carlos:

My 50th year.

Carlos:

My 50th, your 50th year.

Carlos:

This is like, go you couldn't, you couldn't have planned this.

Carlos:

so let's start with, um, what have you enjoyed over this past 50 episode?

Carlos:

Sprint?

Carlos:

Or marathon.

Ben:

I very much enjoyed this random free-flowing torque, um, sort of loosely hitched to the poll of pricing.

Carlos:

Well, yes, and I, and I think that's for me, um, talks to this an idea of just like having a focus but not being so constrained by it.

Carlos:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

talk to something that a lot of people we know struggle with and are working with and, and, and trying to get better at, but also bringing the wider context of this work.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

You know, and where, how it gets, uh, is impacted by, and impacts on not just the business side of things, but the personal stuff.

Carlos:

And I have really enjoyed just the exploration, exploratory aspect of it.

Carlos:

it, it, it feeds for me.

Carlos:

It feeds the soul, so it allows me to, or feeds my need for variety and, and, and curiosity while also having quite a clear purpose.

Carlos:

That's, that's something that I've, I've really enjoyed.

Carlos:

And also just to be able to do it in a way that just chilled and relaxed.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

Not overly serious.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Not taking ourselves too seriously, which I think is, I think it makes it feel a bit more accessible to people.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

And, uh, I kind of do, you know, it's always, it's always a kind of pleasure to have the kind of random conversation with somebody and they say, oh, I was listening to your podcast whilst insert here walking the dog, doing

Carlos:

the

Ben:

dishes, doing the dishes, uh, s writing a proposal, going to sleep.

Carlos:

so what is it, do you think, have you, is there anything that you've learned from doing this?

Ben:

so yeah, I would say I've learned lots of things.

Ben:

I've learned about, learned the importance of sort of consistently.

Ben:

Sort of doing something makes it easier to think about it, the importance of consistently doing something if you are in the business somewhat of running a course or kind of offering a course to, to people.

Ben:

So kind of, you know, the, just the super kind of practical things around that, the relationship between those two things.

Ben:

I think you kind of made reference to, um, either in the before or the beginning.

Ben:

Understanding how this came about a little bit.

Ben:

And so there's definitely an element of kind of what I've learned, which is linked to how this came about.

Ben:

Certainly from kind of my side, which actually goes all the way back to 2020 when I did 2020 in 2020.

Ben:

Because obviously that was the only time really to do 2020 in the year of 2020.

Ben:

Um, but when I was doing, when I was doing that, uh, listening to a conversation on there, and I can't remember who it was, it was you and somebody else.

Ben:

And they were saying, oh, I know what the thing I need to do is I need to get the stuff that's in my head outta my head in order to create some space for new things to kind of grow.

Ben:

And, uh, I kind of, that really resonated with me at the time of trying to sort of unpick some of the work that I was doing.

Ben:

And so, you know, talking about this, you know, some of these kind of practical things which come up in the running of companies, which is really what I sort of knew a lot about.

Ben:

I thought, oh, well, let's start just getting that outta my head somewhat.

Ben:

It will create space in time for, for new things to, to bubble up.

Ben:

And so in coming back to the question sense of kind of what I've kind of learned, you know, really having explored this sort of topic in quite, you know, a lot of detail and how it relates to, um, selling and how it relates to our relationship to money, uh, and how it relates to a lot of the things which sort of, you know, a lot of these things are, you know.

Ben:

Uh, pricing and writing proposals and conversations we might have when we're selling.

Ben:

These are all kind of things in a way which are sort of a bit, you know, above the line.

Ben:

They're the kind of visible things that we see in the running of our business.

Ben:

And I think one of the things that I've kind of really learned and enjoyed sort of exploring and letting reveal some, which is of course, is much more the relationship between.

Ben:

What we don't see what's kind of going on under the skin, under the surface of our kind of hearts and minds, which might be shaping and affecting that.

Ben:

So I think that whole kind of, that's been a, a kind of big part of the learning for me over the course of talking about these things and spending time with the, the topic has been the kind of revealing of that too.

Carlos:

There's a practical side for me.

Carlos:

There's this need for contribution that I have, and I feel like being able to learn from you and then share that learning with other people and having people be able to use that knowledge around, you know, just thinking about pricing in a different way that isn't finger in the air or isn't trepidation.

Carlos:

Is informed, I would say an informed way of doing pricing.

Carlos:

That's been really helpful and also really rewarding to then see people say, oh God, I never thought about it that way.

Carlos:

And to actually put it to practice and like our friend Jim, to have been able to use what he learned, just like coming onto the podcast with us, to then build one sound like a good runway of work for himself through looking at pricing in a different way when he is proposals.

Carlos:

It's helped me understand is like, actually I'm more interested in the other stuff, that deeper stuff, the stuff, because it feels like the tactic strategies are everywhere, but they feel a bit groundless because I've observed at very least many people can understand the concepts, but don't necessarily execute because of something else.

Carlos:

And that being from my understanding, is a whole myriad of things as well that people bring to the table.

Carlos:

there isn't just unified.

Carlos:

Alright, I just need to know how to put more options in the way I price.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

I just need to talk to my customers.

Carlos:

Sometimes a reason I, I don't wanna talk or I'm scared of talking.

Carlos:

And what's behind that.

Carlos:

And then like, one of the things we ask on the course at the very beginning, what will more money buy you is like even just being able to express what do I want?

Carlos:

Mm.

Carlos:

Where is it I'm trying to get to with all of this stuff.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

Uh, or all of this knowledge.

Carlos:

on that.

Carlos:

Other curiosities, you know, other things that you wanna explore because of this work and getting this stuff outta your head.

Carlos:

Now it's out there.

Carlos:

It feels like it's created space for more, for stuff that that's, Growing some roots.

Ben:

Well, yeah, I think roots.

Ben:

Roots is a, is a, is a good, is a good, good word.

Ben:

A right, right word.

Ben:

I think, you know, like you very much, I'm much more interested in the depth, I'm much more interested in all of the, the kind of stuff which is kind of unseen.

Ben:

Silently choreographing and shaping what we do.

Ben:

Like, you know, you're talking about in, in the context of this.

Ben:

And I think the, the kind of journey of doing this podcast has been then the kind of opportunity to explore that.

Ben:

But yeah, so similar, similar to you.

Ben:

I'm interested in the depth.

Ben:

I think, you know, clearly we were talking at the beginning about the whole thing around hospice modernity and the, the bigness of that.

Ben:

And I kind of just, I guess it kind of feels increasingly to I, over the years we've.

Ben:

For me personally, like kind of bubbling around in the background is a kind of this sort of idea exploration inquiry around Buddha on the board and what that might mean and, and I think in a, in a sense I, you know, to the extent that that sort of means anything, it kind of just feels like clearly we are at a point where, Sort of understanding a bit more about, you know, some

Ben:

of the depth, understanding what some of the kind of drivers and influences might be, which remaining unseen, which are kind of shaping what we do and affecting how we turn up in the world.

Ben:

I think, you know, helping people get to a place of a bit more kind of brave, a bit more kind of fearless, a bit more kind of revolutionary leadership in a, in a sense kind of feels like a lot of the work for me, which has been bubbling out our time of, of exploring this.

Ben:

Exploring all the, all the kind of pricing stuff.

Ben:

And I think the, the sort of the, the kind of frame of the podcast as a kind of place of continually talking and turning up has been, uh, kind of, you know, we're talking about at the beginning has been a, a kind of poll around which some of those things can, um, kind of ferment a little bit.

Carlos:

I'm curious about this now, this the phrase you said, revolutionizing leadership.

Ben:

I think it's more, more rather than revolutionizing leadership, I think just clearly living in a time of a bit more revolutionary leaders, so kind of leaders a bit, were kind of more radically brave to start to do things in a very different way.

Ben:

Um, 'cause you know, the idea of.

Ben:

Business as usual.

Ben:

As much as we might like the kind of chai latte or whatever we were sort of talking about, the kind of idea of business usual clearly isn't a thing which can sustain.

Ben:

So in some form, you know, we exist in a time which is kind of needing, and I think people kind of wanting a bit more kind of radical leadership.

Ben:

I was talking to somebody just about the kind of politics of the time, the earlier sense, you know, there's just a.

Ben:

What, by some definition would be called radical or revolutionary ideas, but actually they're just in a sense kind of talking to the time that we live in, talking to the, the need for a bit more bravery and a bit more change and how it is that you kind of help people step into that space is one of the things I'm curious about.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

The word bravery rings, um.

Carlos:

Uh, on one hand because I feel like when we talk, you know, when we're talking about pricing and we're helping people with pricing, uh, it's usually because, you know, they need to charge more.

Carlos:

They're feeling scared because their business is in a threat and they're needing to work out how can I create more safety?

Carlos:

Again, we talk about the money stories and how money can feel like safety and, and trying to, create this kind of sense that everything's gonna be okay.

Carlos:

While at the same time, to do that, they have to really step out of their comfort zone.

Carlos:

They have to turn up a bit differently, and that can be a massive step for many people because it's going into a new way of doing things.

Carlos:

And so caught with this idea transitioning how, how we transition.

Carlos:

we don't necessarily throw the baby out with the bath water, but we, yeah, we, we keep the stuff that's helpful while creating new stuff that is needed.

Ben:

Yeah, I dunno.

Ben:

I mean, I guess the, one of the things which was coming to mind as you were talking there, um.

Ben:

Was, for example, all of the work say that, um, case, case Klump was, was talking about summer camp, for example, and the work that he does, which is similar to, uh, you know, the guy Charles Eisenstein, which is all about the story underlying story in a sense.

Ben:

Uh, and that if there is going to be, Some kind of meaningful, brave change, whatever it might be.

Ben:

It's because there's a change that happens in terms of, at the story level, in terms of the worldview level, in terms of how we just, how we, we talk about and understand our pace in, in the world.

Ben:

And this is quite a tenuous link, but I'm gonna go with it anyway, but it, so it kind of feels, to me it's at the story level, isn't it?

Ben:

Which is where I think, which is.

Ben:

We're both talking about the kind of importance of depth or what's kind of happening a little bit below the surface.

Ben:

For me, a lot of that is about the story, which is bubbling under the surface.

Ben:

The story that sits behind why we tell us, you know, why we do the things that we do, or why we tell ourselves about how, you know, or, or why, why we do the things that we do.

Ben:

And in a sense, the kind of the need and the opportunity is to, is to change that story somewhat and.

Ben:

A lot of what, you know, comes out of the kind of all of this sort of pricing work as you were pointing to actually the tools and tactics is up here.

Ben:

It's the kind of top thing where it hits, where, you know, where it either unlocks or doesn't unlock is because there is a shift in the, in the story which sits underneath, uh, and.

Ben:

So I guess in terms of the kind of most tenuous kind of link, I think that's why, in a sense, I'm interested in those stories underneath changing and what that kind of reveals and the opportunity that that opens up.

Ben:

And I think that is true, whether we, whether we see that in the, practical stuff around money and pricing in our business.

Ben:

But it is true, of course, just then also on a system wide thing too.

Carlos:

I'm very much with you on that.

Carlos:

because there are the, the stories that we have around money that then affect how we use money, uh, and that's at a personal level because of experiences in our childhood or experiences early in life.

Carlos:

And then there's the stories of this system of money.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And the need to have this system in place and, and why these financial systems, this capitalist system, these societal systems are there.

Carlos:

What's holding them up?

Carlos:

Um, and when you talk about revolutionary way of thing doing things, a radical ways of doing things, I think it's Einstein's you.

Carlos:

The same thinking that got you here to get you to somewhere else.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

Uh, and to, uh, to change that thinking, it does mean, first being aware of what those stories are, which, which is the thing I'm learning through Dougal's work.

Carlos:

Uh, I'm now curious about Vanessa's work.

Carlos:

What are the stories that human beings had that came up?

Carlos:

And there's another book, uh.

Carlos:

Eastern culture, western culture, and how all of how cultures have evolved to then create these systems that's so tightly connected that it kind of feels as they're all, you know, it's always been like this when in fact there's at the root, there's a story.

Carlos:

And this, I think this is what I'm learning here, is like I'm always in search of that little, pivot point, that little switch, that lever that if you just flick that the ripple effects.

Carlos:

Can be quite impactful and hopefully beneficial because you just shifted a, a perspective, a story, an attitude, and whether that's at a tactical level about, oh, oh, I have that story about money and that's why I find it difficult to even ask for more money.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

To a story about, oh, so this

Carlos:

beautiful.

Carlos:

Or successful.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

That's based on another story.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

And there are, there were you, you were talking, uh, Jeremy Lent, who wrote that book, the Patterning Instinct, and another book called The Web of Meaning, which is a brilliant, brilliant book to read.

Ben:

And yeah, I, I spoke to Jeremy on my, the, my other podcast as well.

Ben:

And it's because I, yeah.

Ben:

I'm kind of interested in, in all this, and the extent to which there are kind of levers.

Ben:

Some, there was a sort of quote somewhere that, uh, somebody said it was like, it was easier to imagine the end of the world than it was end.

Ben:

Like these things, it seems so kind of set in a way.

Ben:

Um, and it seems so fixed.

Ben:

That it is kind of difficult to imagine, but you know, like how these, you know, how change works and Jeremy led talks about that a lot actually.

Ben:

Just from a system perspective, you know, how change works and actually, you know, when, when change comes, there is, you know, in a sense there is a lever, there is something which kind of pops open and things ripple out from that very, very quickly in, in some instances.

Ben:

And those things are, you know, often surprising and they're unseen and they're a bit kind of unpredictable.

Carlos:

What came up for me as well for also having, having read Doug's book and this invitation, artists to tell us a different story or, you know, their perspective on this.

Carlos:

This idea of allowing ourselves to dream of a different way.

Carlos:

Uh, and being able to let go of how, you know, whatever's around you, to just see what new ways, creative ways we could look at our work, our world, how we want to do things, not be conditioned so much, much by the conventional ways of doing things.

Ben:

Yeah, I spoke to somebody else on podcast.

Ben:

There's a writer called Richard Wayne and he has just written a book, um, which is called Through the Brink, is the Beginning or something like that.

Ben:

I need to double check.

Ben:

Anyway, he, he, part of the inspiration for that book was somebody else, whose name I can't remember, whose, whose work is all around kind of getting people to think about what, if not what is.

Ben:

Which is exactly to the point you're talking about there.

Ben:

If we kind of, if we come at things from what if, you know what if I lived by sharing kind of, sort of things I have with neighbors rather than what is, it does kind of open up a realm of possibility.

Ben:

Much more can be a much more sort of inspiring place to be.

Ben:

A much more hopeful place to be rather than kind of being too much kind of, uh, bogged down in the kind of what is of, of kind of fear and all the rest.

Carlos:

So on that.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Bringing us to a close.

Carlos:

what's your, what if for 2024, um, do, do you have any what ifs that are emerging or maybe even just slightly hazy in a distance?

Carlos:

What if next for you?

Ben:

A what if in the relationship to the kind of podcast is 'cause part of the kind of cocooning happy pricing for me is about kind of creating some sort of space in a sense.

Ben:

And in that space I would think I would like to, you know, populate that with.

Ben:

Ever more kind of braver, radical contributions to the, the world which get, you know, which help wake people up and which help people, you know, think about the context of their day-to-day in a kind of ever different way.

Ben:

So, in a sense, a kind of what if possibility as as this kind of little podcast series or big podcast series actually, which is what it is as this big PO podcast series.

Ben:

Is is kind of, sort of got a little bow on it to put its seat for a while.

Ben:

It creates a what if space to kind of much more for me, much more bravely and boldly, um, to borrow Francis's brilliant phrase, kind of much more bravely and boldly, um, kind of offer some new, make some new contributions to the world.

Carlos:

Yeah, I like that.

Carlos:

I think it has been a, um, this journey has kind of been like a little bit of an incubator.

Carlos:

For many ideas.

Carlos:

It's, it's, it's opened my world up to not just now, oh, I've got a totally different perspective of pricing, but then thinking about the money, thinking about the money stories, thinking about also what that means in terms of how we turn up and what we want, how we want to change things, um, and working within the system, but then also wanting to change it somehow for the.

Carlos:

Dream up on new ways of working that didn't hold us back.

Carlos:

Well, it wasn't held back by the current systems or current constraints.

Ben:

And I guess an important, important sort of useful reminder, and I've gotta go to a Carroll, not that was.

Ben:

Summer camp, another great, uh, somebody, a woman called Phoebe Tickle, who does some brilliant work around side.

Ben:

Do you know her?

Ben:

But it is real kind of just useful reminder.

Ben:

We are the system, we are part of, you know, the system isn't something out there that I change.

Ben:

We are nodes in the system.

Ben:

We are, we are agents, we are players, we are actors in the system too.

Ben:

Uh, and in a sense that's also quite an empowering idea.

Ben:

Like I can.

Ben:

Obviously control what I do, how I change how I turn up, and then trust that the ripple effects of that are what they're,

Carlos:

yeah.

Carlos:

Lovely.

Carlos:

Well, I'll let, I'll let you get onto your, Carol, thank you very much for joining us and being part of this.

Carlos:

There, let's create these ripple effects.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

And thank you.

Carlos:

I loved it and I really appreciated it, and yeah, maybe we will come back, Francis as a science program of systems, physics, metaphysics, and radical leadership.

Carlos:

Exactly.

Carlos:

Awesome.

Carlos:

Everyone.

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