Episode 57
The purpose of being polarising
Being polarising in your pricing and your offering is way more impactful than trying to appeal to the masses. But it means being clear about who you want to work with and focusing tightly on them.
This not only helps attract the right customers who’ll find value in your offerings, but it saves your time and theirs, by allowing those who aren’t a good fit to self-select themselves out of the process early on.
In this episode, Carlos and Ben explore how having a clear, distinct stance can help find the right clients, along with how pricing sends a signal that attracts those we want to work with, and repels those that aren’t right for us.
Transcript
Welcome, welcome.
Carlos:Thank you for, for sharing a hello in the chat.
Ben:Good to read you, not hear you.
Carlos:Exactly.
Carlos:Um, so I wasn't listening to you at all when you were checking in.
Carlos:How are you again?
Carlos:Today on Happy Pricing,:::::: we're talking about this idea of being polarizing.
Carlos:Now, I, I was putting in the context of pricing.
Carlos:Ben said, well, it's polarizing with everything.
Carlos:Um, uh, and it's, it's, Inspired or instance it came from, you know, you have this manifesto, misfit manifesto, and you talk about polarizing.
Carlos:Do you just quote yourself?
Carlos:Can you quote yourself off the top of your head or do you have to read the page?
Ben:I would actually have to read the page.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:There's this really, really important, meaningful manifesto that Ben created about misfits, but he didn't write himself.
Carlos:He probably someone, he got someone else to write it and occasionally he has to go back to what did what?
Carlos:What did I?
Ben:So in this instance, I did actually write myself.
Ben:Okay, good.
Ben:I did write it myself so we can, we can sort of worry not about that.
Ben:This, they were genuinely kind of words, which came from my hand, my pen.
Ben:So, uh, that was a given, but I did write it quite a long time ago.
Ben:Uh, so I can't really remember the specifics.
Ben:I don't go back to it very often.
Ben:I did know when we were that I do know that one of the pointers around polarizing, that much I do know for sure.
Ben:Uh, and uh, 'cause this had come up in a conversation we'd had a few weeks ago, which I think was relating to some online chat somewhere about people criticizing somebody's book around something.
Ben:As part of that conversation, we were kind of making the point there, or I was making the point and we were, we were discussing that actually there, there does need to be some polarizing in it.
Ben:So actually, if you were to write a book review, for example, and this might be a kind of segue into this, if you were to write a, you know, if you, if you were to kind of publish a book, but actually.
Ben:All that you kind of got online was, uh, a kind of, sort of series of sort of vanilla reviews, actually, I guess the point is you wouldn't really just get a series of vanilla reviews.
Ben:Um, people feel compelled to do something because they're really drawn to it.
Ben:And if somebody is really, really drawn to something in a positive way, there's a very, very high chance that actually in equal measure some other people.
Ben:Are repelled by it.
Ben:So in some respects, the stronger that you are drawing some people towards your products, your services, your story, it is likely and maybe necessary that you are gonna be pushing others away in equal measure, these things go in relation to each other.
Ben:So the importance of kind of polarizing is to have a point of view.
Ben:Which, you know, accepting, some people are not going to like that po point of view.
Ben:It's not gonna resonate with some people.
Ben:Or maybe even worse, it would actually repel some people.
Ben:But the, the kind of truth of that, the kind of confidence that can be taken from that is the more that you are repelling in some respects by equal measure, the more the, the, the, the, the more you are attracting in other respects.
Carlos:And this is the thing that reminded me about Klaus Rasad, whose book we were talking about.
Carlos:He, he said something around the, the trouble is that we worry too much about the people we piss off rather than the people who love us.
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:And that's the thing to work on.
Carlos:And he was talking about in terms of pricing, he's like, oh, we put a price out and we're, we are worried more about the people who won't buy it for that price than, than focus on the people who may buy it for that price or will buy it for that price.
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:And there's something there around why we don't focus on the people we think that will pay that money.
Carlos:So, um, that's for me part of the whole idea of polarizing, uh, part of it you said is like, sounded like a provocation.
Carlos:And now again, going back to Klaus and, I think it was Philip, they were talking about their book, about pricing, pricing your expertise.
Carlos:They're charging it at 560 euros.
Carlos:And that.
Carlos:It is polarizing.
Carlos:That is, I'm not a, it's provocative, I think is the thing.
Carlos:It is provoking a reaction.
Carlos:And so in that case, there's a strategy there.
Carlos:I think it's like a service to people to like wake people up in their eyes.
Carlos:Like, shit, how can you charge 560 euros for a book?
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:And those people who are really interested in that will buy it and those who are triggered by it will run a mile.
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:That's how I'm translating it there.
Carlos:But that's, that feels like a, it's, it's kind of very much more mission led rather than money led.
Carlos:You know, I'm not sure how many books they're gonna sell at that mile Money maybe.
Carlos:Lots dunno.
Carlos:But it was, it felt, it's very much coming from a statement of intent.
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:Trying to get people to think.
Carlos:And then there's this idea of polarizing, well, I think, uh, is around just knowing who you're going to sell to.
Carlos:And the other story that reminds me is Rachel Morris, who I hope will also join us on the podcast, so she was talking about some guy who does these one page business model canvas things, and he does it in an hour and he charges people $80,000.
Carlos:And he is like, what?
Carlos:You know, on one hand he's like, ah, what?
Carlos:And he said, and he comfortably says Yes.
Carlos:Well, if I'm gonna take, and I'm gonna paraphrase it, if I'm gonna take your business from 1 million revenue to 2 million revenue, is it worth paying $80,000 for this thing that will help you get there?
Carlos:And so there, there's a real, in the polarization aspect, 'cause it's like actually, most of us would never consider buying that, but some people will think it's super valuable and affordable.
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Ben:Yeah.
Carlos:And that's
Ben:And or necessary.
Carlos:And or necessary.
Carlos:And so there's a, there's, there's a polarizing aspect to that.
Carlos:Not because they're trying to provoke, it's that he knows exactly who his customers are.
Ben:And also he is signaling to those people, um, that this is them.
Ben:'cause that's the other thing around all of this, which is true with the 560 Euro book, as it is true with a.
Ben:80,000 whatever, uh, business
Carlos:dollar, business plan whatever.
Ben:Yeah.
Ben:Um, blah, blah, blah.
Ben:Um, is that, you know, the, the kind of price that we send is a signal.
Ben:Uh, and you know the point around that, like you say that, you know, maybe some people run a mile, uh, when they see a book, which is 560 Euros, but you know, but equally, there'll be some of those people who are running a mile but actually looking longingly over their shoulder as they do.
Ben:Because it's sending a signal.
Ben:It's sending a signal that there is something about the book.
Ben:Now, we may choose to ignore that signal.
Ben:We may choose, you know, that signal.
Ben:May resonate with us, that signal might be what it's intended to be, which is a kind of flag in the ground that this is for people who think in a certain way to kind of invite them in essentially.
Carlos:Mm.
Ben:Uh, and of course, nobody's gonna buy an 80,000 pound, $80,000 workshop or even a 560 Euro book if it is not then backed up by trust, and it's not backed up by belief.
Ben:But essentially, you know, the task for all of us really in, in selling our work, in finding people who are kind of willing and able to buy it for rates, which for amounts, which, you know, do justice to what we are trying to do and, and our needs as much as what they're, they're gonna get is we do need to find ways of, of cutting through.
Ben:We do need to find ways of standing out.
Ben:And there's a sort of, so on the, price is a signal, uh, that we're speaking about because it's sort of saying to people, you can trust this or you can't trust this.
Ben:Which is all, which is as an aside, one of the dangers around the kind of the cheap thing, because people also make judgments on that as much as they're making judgments about the, the kind of the expensive thing.
Ben:So, you know, these things, these things are a signal.
Ben:These things are a start of a conversation.
Ben:Uh, and you know, we all kind of have the responsibility to kind of explore and play with those.
Carlos:One of, I had a conversation earlier today about this idea of, uh, missing a trick.
Carlos:And, uh, ooh, this, there's a kind of, actually, I had a conversation with Frances, who's now on the call now, and we were talking about our own businesses, and so are, are we missing a trick with something?
Carlos:And I say that in this context, it's like, you know, you're talking about a signal and this, you know, how can we stand out this kind of, what are the things that we can do to stand out?
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:And there's something about this idea of even using the word trick.
Carlos:Because there's, it, it feels not particularly, um, ethical, for instance, it's like trying to convince someone to do something that maybe they wouldn't do in the first place.
Carlos:Maybe that's my story, but I also think it's a story of a lot of people who, who are part of our community, who, who want to be equitable and they want to have fairness and they're doing something impactful and purposeful.
Carlos:And I think the here for me is this real focus on who you want to serve and the capacity to pay and how committed they are to making the change happen.
Carlos:And I think there's something around, yes, $20 stands out a signal that maybe this is cheap, depending on who you're selling it to.
Ben:Mm-Hmm,
Carlos:isn't it?
Ben:And what it
Carlos:who you're targeting and what it is.
Carlos:But there's, there's, I know there's may a lot people who wanna work with either organizations in the charity sector or the social enterprise, really small sort of ground grassroots kind of little one mans organizations, which they don't have the money to spend, even though it would create a lot of value in them in the work.
Carlos:And so $20, $40, $50, a hundred dollars is ridiculously expensive.
Carlos:And so, you know, if you wanna work with those people and that's your mission, and that's it, then, then there is what, you know, what we talk about the pricing course or is it, is like knowing who these people are and, and being very intentional with that, rather than it just being, all right, this is a tactic to get pay, get people to pay more money.
Carlos:I think this is a, a statement of intent that these are the people I want to work with because of these reasons.
Carlos:And I think unless you can tell the story of the reasons for yourself that you wanna work with them, as opposed to, I just wanna get, find people who can pay me loads of money, then I think that's when it starts to get challenging around this polarizing trick.
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:Do you see where I'm coming from with this?
Ben:I do, but I will say, I didn't use the word trick.
Carlos:No, you didn't.
Carlos:You didn't.
Carlos:No.
Carlos:No.
Ben:Uh, and so for me, the polarizing isn't really a trick.
Ben:Um, I think it's, you know, the, like with all of these things, it's about intent, isn't it?
Ben:And um, as, as we've also sort of spoken about before, I think people who are trying to work with people who have kind of a low ability to invest, then for sure the thing that you do needs to be priced in such a way, or needs to be sort of consumed in such a way that it, you know, it's kind of workable for them and it is workable for you.
Ben:Um, so, you know, there has to be a kind of meat, essentially a meeting where you know, what you are offering can be consumed by the market if you want to consume it for the rates that they can afford, but also kind of make sense for you.
Ben:And so that is, you know, that is down to your individual thing.
Ben:I mean, I really don't see it as, uh, a trick at all.
Ben:But like I said, I think that is about, it is about intent.
Ben:I think it is.
Ben:You know, like going back to that first thing we were about that book review, the point is the people were writing reviews that in measure, you know, on the one hand say, what was the book?
Ben:It was Rich Dad, Poor Dad, wasn't it?
Carlos:Yeah, that's right.
Ben:And so some people say this book's, he's a sham.
Ben:You know, what does he know about any of this sort of stuff?
Ben:He is making it up, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Ben:And other people say, no, I found these things really useful.
Ben:They're really helpful.
Ben:And that's the point, isn't it, right?
Ben:Actually, if it had just been a load of vanilla stuff, which didn't really move people one way or the other, there would be no reviews and this is not then a kind of judgment or sort of test about whether he is able to write that book or whether he should be writing that book, whether he is some sort of chancer snake or salesman or whatever it may be.
Ben:It's not about that, but in a sense, if it had just been a series of kind of vanilla, middle of the road nothingness, would there be any, any reviews at all?
Ben:Um, and by equal measure, I mean I guess it does, you know is it really commonplace where there's only a kind of sort of series of just endless stream of kind of good reviews where there are good reviews, there are always kind of by extension kind of, uh, sort of negative reviews, taking that sort of dynamic as the, as the way forward.
Ben:So I think, I think for me.
Ben:It's, you know, it's really not about trick.
Ben:It's not about missing anything.
Ben:It's about having the confidence to stand behind the thing that you do.
Ben:Understanding that the thing you do is going to be best suited and best place for some people.
Ben:And so by extension, if it's really well suited to some people, it's not gonna be well suited to other people.
Ben:And being clear around that helps you because it will save you time in the work that you do helps other people too, because you want people to be able to select themselves out your orbit as soon as possible, because in a way, for lots of the work that any of us might be selling or any of the people who are on this might be
Ben:selling, in a way, one of the things which really kind of drags us down is sort of trying to make something happen with a prospect where it's never gonna happen.
Ben:And in a way what we want to do it is like, uh, somebody sort of spoke.
Ben:It's the kind of maybes in a sense.
Ben:That's sort of kidding.
Ben:The people who are maybe think you, you think are maybe thinking about working with you.
Ben:And so you invest energy in these maybe people, you invest time in these maybe people, but in a way for many of those maybe people, they're never actually really going to work with you, but in a way they don't have the confidence just to say no to you.
Ben:They don't have a confidence draw line, so you just get sort of stuck in this sort of maybe dance, but it's never gonna kind of go anywhere.
Ben:And in a way you want to be able to have given those people the opportunity.
Ben:To self-select themselves out of the conversation early on.
Ben:And that is also just another part of the polarizing thing.
Ben:You know, if we are really clear about who it's for, if we're really, really clear about the value that they will get from it, if they are really clear about that by just necessary extension, then it is, it is clear who it is not for.
Ben:It is clear if I'm not for that person, that I kind of understand that.
Ben:So it's not a trick.
Ben:It's a tool that helps signal and flag to the people who you really want to work with, that it is for them.
Ben:So it is part of that conversation that helps them understand why it's for them and what they're gonna get from it, which just means that you can remove the people.
Ben:It is not for from the journey.
Carlos:So if, um, what it feels like for someone who wants to be more polarizing because it will be a benefit not only to them, but also to their potential clients, so that they can, those who aren't, who are these maybes who will never buy, they can at least waste less time on deciding or not.
Ben:And they can waste less time too.
Carlos:Yeah.
Ben:Everyone can wait, yeah.
Carlos:Everyone wastes less time.
Carlos:There's something here then about, as the person who is, who's offering.
Carlos:You talked about being clear about who you want to work with, but then there's, I assume there's also a confidence about the work you do.
Carlos:Because I think there's maybe one thing I, I'm, I'm gonna flag here that some people might struggle with is this kind of imposter syndrome or just something that's stopping them from being polarizing.
Carlos:Um, we've, we've clearly stated being polarizing is gonna be helpful.
Carlos:It's gonna be helpful for your profits, it gonna be helpful for your time.
Carlos:It's gonna be helpful for the sense of impact, all these things.
Carlos:But for some reason, some people stop getting to that, having that stance, having that premise.
Ben:Of course, one of the times when we struggle with that idea is when we are struggling for work, full stop.
Ben:Right?
Ben:So, you know, the, the idea that we would say no to somebody at a point where we're sort of struggling, where of course it's kind of completely ridiculous, and yeah, you need to do, you need to do what you need to do to ensure you are making the money that you need to be able to, to survive.
Ben:Once we kind of get sort of beyond that a little bit, so, you know, we know that our kind of immediate needs can be met and there is sort of some, there is some money enough just to be able to survive.
Ben:Assuming that that is kind of being, being dealt with, then we kind of have this sort of responsibility, I think, to experiment with this.
Ben:Because in a way, and then, you know, this conversation is essentially around, you know, broadly, sometimes around pricing.
Ben:Uh, and to the point of, you know, in a sense the, the kind of value that we can sort of in terms of our pricing and what we might sort of get from that in terms of what we might be, what a, what a client might pay us, that is linked to how, how distinct our sort of services are understood to be, how distinct our product is understood to be.
Ben:And by sort of distinct, I mean, sort of clear in terms of what I, I, as the customer would get from it.
Ben:And so, you know, the, the clearer and more sort of sharply positioned that is for want of a better phrase, uh, the clearer or well expressed, or well articulated that is, uh, really does determine how valuable our products and services are understood to be.
Ben:So there, there, you know, there comes to be a direct line, not withstanding that there are some people who want to, who have to pay less and all those sorts of things, so I think that that's kind of given.
Ben:But once we kind of get sort of a little bit beyond that, the strength of the outcome that is enjoyed from working with us, that does point to and how distinct that is, that does point to how much we are likely to earn from, from the work that we do, which is why being really clear around that is important.
Ben:In terms of why people sort of struggle with it, I think they struggle with it because, you know, it feels like we are saying no to people in some instances.
Ben:And, you know, we may have kind of, sort of stories or worries about that.
Ben:There may be an immediately pressing problem around kind of money like we've sort of spoken about, but it just, it feels uncomfortable, the idea that we would say no.
Ben:To some people, because some people don't like saying no to other people.
Ben:Some to people don't like the feeling that it is about, you know, essentially that's about kind of conflict.
Ben:Some people are have underlying kind of, there's an underlying worry around money generally that makes us kind of feel that we can never afford to say no, even though actually maybe we can afford to say no.
Ben:So I think there are many reasons which pop up about why people would sort of struggle to do this.
Ben:You know, like I said, everything from kind of feeling like I'm being rude to somebody, feeling like I'm inviting conflict, feeling like I am sort of cutting off my metaphorical head because I am sort of, I'm, I'm effectively cutting off potential sources of money in the future.
Ben:So there are many reasons why I think we would not do that.
Ben:And of course this happens like not just with individual practitioners, like lots of the people who are listening to this or small companies, the people who are listening to this.
Ben:This happens with big companies all the time, too.
Ben:Big companies, you know, like I remember with my last company, we, be our, our clients we're all big companies, they would hate the idea of polarizing.
Ben:Now they can sort of deal with it a little bit because like, you know, if I think about some of our clients, whether it's Sony or Samsung, these people are spending hundred billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars on marketing their things, right?
Ben:So in a way they can afford to be vanilla, they can afford not to alienate, because actually they're just, it's just a, it's, you know, it's a tsunami of stuff.
Ben:It's much, much harder.
Ben:Of course, if we are just one or the kind of ocean of people who are offering similar things to us.
Ben:There does need to be a way of us sort of standing over here to some, to some degree while, while the kind of rest stand there.
Ben:Uh, and so I think, you know, there is real value and importance in being clear about that place that you sort stand in and sort of recognizing and acknowledging it is hard, I think for many people to do that because it is hard for many people to feel like they're kind of polarizing for the reasons we've spoken about.
Ben:It feels awkward, it feels risky, it feels conflicting, all of that sort of stuff, which basically is saying to us, this is a risk doing this, but actually, you know, like with lots of these things, it's actually a risk not doing it.
Carlos:There's something here for me around, particularly for people in our community and people who, who might be listening to this, around how much energy and resource do you have?
Carlos:So when you talked about the likes of Sony or Samsung, they have teams and teams of people of just talking about Sony and Samsung.
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:So the, the message is out there and it's a recognized name and there's a identity there that people associate to that.
Carlos:As a small company or agency or single coach, you're doing the work as well as selling and marketing.
Carlos:So you don't necessarily have the ability to reach out to as many people, or even if you do shout to everyone, that's a lot of people to keep in touch with.
Carlos:And so part of this polarizing approach, or having a, uh, a very specific point of view is kind of a, a self preservation tactic as well, I'm hearing.
Ben:Mm.
Carlos:It's like, how much energy do you actually have to do this?
Carlos:How many different ideas and concepts do you have to throw out there so that it covers everyone, you know?
Carlos:Or how much time do you have to spend talking about, thinking about what you're gonna say so it doesn't offend anyone?
Ben:Mm-Hmm.
Carlos:And if you're spending all that time trying to.
Carlos:Be nice or not polarize who's doing the work?
Ben:Yeah.
Carlos:Who's working on the business as well as in the business.
Carlos:And so there's something about, it's, it's actually in your interest to start thinking of your stance, to start thinking about who exactly you want to work with and to be quite focused about the, the change, the value, the, the difference you're making in people's lives so that it's easy to articulate, and easy for someone to understand.
Carlos:And I, I wanted to link it to something where we're at with the Vision 2020 program.
Carlos:We're at this we call the profit module or happy money thing.
Carlos:And it is about explaining value.
Carlos:And one of the reasons, one of the things we're trying to get people to do is rather than selling their services as as in terms of time and talking about it, it's like how can you sell a product?
Carlos:'Cause there's something about trying to sell a product that has to get you really focused on what it does.
Carlos:'Cause you can't change it much in a sense.
Carlos:You're like, you make it once and it has to do the thing.
Carlos:And so there's something around, I feel like the practice of productizing is also a practice of specificity, maybe polarizing, but just getting very clear about the value you're gonna create and why.
Ben:Hmm.
Carlos:So a a couple of things, and maybe if you wanna practice this polarizing thing, there's something around maybe trying to think about these little products you can fake that get you very, very specific about the value you wanna create and who it's gonna be valuable to, 'cause then again, how much someone pays for, it's gonna be dependent on who these people are.
Carlos:And then there's this thing about just saving your energy.
Carlos:It's like how much time and energy do you want trying to craft all these different messages or, you know, worry about whether someone's gonna like you or not, or worry about whether to say no or not.
Ben:The thing which I think kind of references back also to what you were talking about from that Klaus had spoken of, relating to, to his book, which also relates to something in my manifesto, and I can't remember what the exact words are, but it's probably around this polarizing tooth, the, the like, really 90% of people you were making this point around Sony and Samsung.
Ben:For most people who are in this community, most people who, who listen, you know, 99% of the people actually do not give a shit about your work, and neither should they actually.
Ben:And the good thing around, you know, that is not a bad thing.
Ben:The good thing about that is, which like is actually, there is 1% of people who really, really do give a shit about your work, who do really, really need it, and they really, really care about it.
Ben:And actually the, that our energy goes to that 1%, to those 1% is the important thing.
Ben:Because you'll get a lot back from kind of investing in that because you are spending the time with the people who do really care, who do really get it, who do really need it.
Ben:And actually it's all about trying, you know, continually trying to kind of bring it down to bring it back to that.
Ben:Who are those, who are those 1%?
Ben:And for me it's a kind of little bit of version of the, you know, the.
Ben:The Kevin Kelly, um, thousand True Fans thing.
Ben:And actually kind of taking that, you know, sort of down another level, you know, if it's, if it's, you know, even if it's even tighter than a thousand people really caring about your thing, you know, who are the 10 people actually who really, really care about your thing?
Ben:And actually the more we're focused there, that is kind of good for our energy.
Ben:It's good for our focus, and it's good for the, it's good for it's to, it's the place from which to grow from.
Carlos:We know people struggle with this.
Carlos:We struggle with this.
Carlos:Everyone struggles with this.
Carlos:And unless we actually have the accountability to turn up regularly to work on it and do it.
Carlos:We'll just go running around in circles, just wishing people would pay us more and feeling stressed and burned out.
Carlos:So I appreciate the, like you say, it's hard as going to the gym, turning up every single week doing the thing, but I also found is actually the muscles of have tightened.
