Episode 38

Should you put your prices on your website?

How comfortable are you talking about money? That, along with what you sell and who you want to sell it to will dictate whether you want to – or should – put prices on your website.

As ever, the answer is never black-and-white, so Ben and Carlos are joined by community leader Frances Khalastchi to unpack the options.

Links

Transcript
Carlos:

When you do search for Waking Up to Money on Google, there's some organization called the BBC that seems of like cornered the market.

Carlos:

Bastards.

Carlos:

These large organizations monopolizing the airways with their useful content and up to the date Information.

Ben:

God just getting in the way of the little guy.

Carlos:

Of the anane banter and ramble that is most valuable to people.

Carlos:

Welcome back to season six, woo, season six.

Carlos:

Now, on average, I think we do about six to eight episodes per season, so.

Carlos:

we have definitely at least 40 episodes of useless content.

Carlos:

What?

Carlos:

Useless content.

Ben:

Who?

Carlos:

This is what the people love.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

This is why they come back.

Carlos:

That's true.

Carlos:

That's true.

Carlos:

And I'm assuming it was the link beatty title Should I put prices on my website?

Carlos:

To be honest, it was something that came up in our Happy Startup community as a little discussion over the past week, and I think various people have different opinions around this.

Carlos:

One.

Carlos:

One person's opinion that we will be hearing from is Frances Khalastchi from the Better Boulder Braver community.

Carlos:

She has some very clear ideas for her about what it means to do that, putting prices public, and we thought it would be a useful.

Carlos:

To kick, kick off, you know, it's, it's in the air, in the Happy Startup air at least.

Carlos:

And it feels like something that most people will be trying to tackle if you sell anything.

Carlos:

And it touches on many kind of elements, I think of what we talk about in Happy Pricing Course.

Carlos:

But we don't wanna overwhelm everyone with every single opinion we have around this.

Carlos:

But there's some key things that we would like to share and talk about, but before we go into that in, in major depth, in your experience, Ben, of like thinking about pricing and making it public, when you think about this, who do you have in mind in terms of the, the people who have this question?

Ben:

So, you know, obviously this kind of links to the whole gnarly thing around pricing and essentially is a function of what you're selling to who kind of how and why.

Ben:

And of course the thing which bubbles up oftentimes is, know, money is a, is a complicated thing to, to talk about and the kind of spoiler alert for this riveting episode is there is not a clear answer to this.

Ben:

You know, should you have prices on, on your website because there's a little bit a case of kind of horses for courses.

Ben:

You know.

Ben:

What you're selling, who you're selling it to, how much you sell, how frequently sell you sell, how often you sell.

Ben:

And I think importantly, how comfortable you are talking about money are all kind of factors which might determine whether or not you put money on your, on your website.

Ben:

But I guess you know where, where it comes up most frequently and maybe where there is the most common need for it is if you are selling something to many people, whether it's a program, whether it's a group, whatever it may be.

Ben:

You know, in that instance there might be need to do it.

Carlos:

The way I was bracketing, this was really a really broad, crude way.

Carlos:

There's services and there's products, and just to be clear, when I think of products, I think of well defined things.

Carlos:

There's very little scope for customization or change.

Carlos:

It's a thing that you sell again and again and again.

Carlos:

And then there's services and I, I would put that at the other end of the spectrum where it can be highly customizable.

Carlos:

It can really be tailored to the individual.

Carlos:

And so with that, there is an option to change every single time you sell.

Ben:

Mm.

Carlos:

And so those are kind of the two very crude extremes that I was trying to bring up here.

Carlos:

One of the key factors around this is your ability to have a conversation about the price and about the value.

Ben:

Mm.

Carlos:

And so if it's one, if you're selling to many, one thing, to many people having a conversation with each of those people, Could have some very specific scarcity limits around time and energy.

Carlos:

And if it's a multitude of things or like a real, a open-ended box of value to a very few number of people.

Carlos:

I mean, when I say open-ended box of highly customizable offering to a fewer number of people, then there's, I would assume, a need to charge more.

Carlos:

Cuz if you are doing less work or working with less people over a year, you're gonna have costs that need to be met.

Carlos:

But then also there's more scope and more possibility for a lot of more variety.

Ben:

That makes sense.

Ben:

And I know Ann was making the point around whether selling to individuals, it makes it more complicated.

Ben:

And I guess an extension of that, what she's saying now about doing bespoke work.

Ben:

Cause of course bespoke work can be individuals, I dunno if you mean like individuals and or just individual company clients depending on who you're selling to.

Ben:

Cause I think, yeah, if, if you are selling to.

Ben:

If it is bespoke, then you know, one of the things that we talk about on the course, and one of the things we're interested in is the value of that work actually is quite different to all of those different people.

Ben:

So even if they're sort of individual, you know, buying in their own personal capacity, or if they are individual people in different organizations buying actually their motivations for buying the things that you do and the, the problem that it's solving the value of that is very different.

Ben:

And so, of course, the kind of the need and opportunity a little bit is that you do keep, that, you do keep that open, you keep that alive because that's a kind of key part of you being able to go on a journey with your prospective clients together to arrive at a place where, you know, kind of mutually, it feels beneficial for you to work together.

Ben:

And that journey of exploration, that journey of finding things out together, you know, the price bit is a key part of that.

Ben:

And so the more you keep that open yeah, the more you keep that alive, the bigger the opportunity there is for both of you, cuz it keeps the conversation kind of broad.

Ben:

So yeah, so that is definitely the scenario to to, to keep it open on the program.

Ben:

We talk a lot to people who are selling services.

Ben:

And we are interested in the selling of services, about the conversation that people are having and so that being a key part of the sales process of the buying journey.

Ben:

I think it's easy then to kind of flip and say you're selling a product as you kind of classified it, guys, there's a clearly defined thing.

Ben:

You wouldn't talk about price as an active part of that because you are, you are selling to many.

Ben:

The one sort of caveat I'd say to that is in order to have got to a point of clarity around price.

Ben:

To have something on your website, there has to have been some degree of testing that with people.

Ben:

There has to have been some degree of clarifying and qualifying with your ideal customer, with your ideal buyer, what this kind of service, what this kind of product might be worth for them.

Ben:

And that is true, I think, whether you are selling products or whether you are selling services, it just may manifest differently as part of the sales journey.

Carlos:

What I was trying to think, there's this story below this that I'm curious about and we don't necessarily get a chance to talk about much on the course is objective ideas of value.

Carlos:

Like it's a very fixed scale and this is, you know, if it's, if it costs this much, it costs this much.

Carlos:

And that's what everyone agrees in the world.

Carlos:

And so, It feels like when you have this ability to have conversations, define the value, you become more aware through those conversations that there is such a subjective aspect to price.

Carlos:

And I, I, I experience a lot of people when they, when people who sell products, for instance, and particularly more consumer, consumer-based products, basically lots of them, you know, I'll just say soft drinks for instance, or I dunno, hairpins or whatever it is.

Carlos:

It feels like there's less scope to move the price.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

because there's this pressure from the market.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And I feel like there, it feels like there's, there there's more of a mindset and apologies for any of you who do sell products, and I'm just talking rubbish, but there, I get this perception that it's hard to shift.

Carlos:

There's a real objective price that exists in the world.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Ben:

I think that's about c.

Ben:

Actually more than it's about product.

Ben:

Well, firstly, cuz there's always the value of a product varies.

Ben:

Right?

Ben:

The value of a he into me very low.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

Yes.

Ben:

Value of a hep into you much higher.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

So there, there is still, there is still a subjective value judgment.

Ben:

There is always a subjective value judgment, I think.

Ben:

But I think that this starts to get into how commodity the thing that you are providing is.

Ben:

Because if your thing is perceived as commodity, Then actually your ability to, to kind of, to, to price to a kind of premium or relative premium, you know, it, it's much harder.

Ben:

So commodity products feel like the price for those is dictated more by the market I make Fanta or whatever the fuck it is, and so there is a kind of thing around, you know, there is a market sensitivity about what people are willing to pay for a can drink.

Ben:

And that is sort of broadly true, but even within that, you think there's huge vari, huge variation actually in which might not look like much, but you know, there might be one can drink which costs 50 p and another one which costs a pound, uh, which may not sound lot, but of course that's a hundred percent difference, right?

Ben:

So there is still huge variation in these things, and a lot of it, I think is about how much of a commodity it is.

Ben:

The, the thing that you provide is perceived to be,

Carlos:

it is about our perception of what is valuable.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And so if we sit in our own own bubble of, okay, this is only worth a hundred pounds, 200 pounds, 500 pounds, and then we use that as the way to, and the price that we put on our websites, then that is taking, not taking into account at all the perception of other people and how we want to be perceived, and how we, to a certain extent, help them understand where we are in this scale of value.

Carlos:

And like you said, we, if we're selling hair clips, Ben's not on the market.

Ben:

Well, it might be, but only as a gift for someone else.

Carlos:

Exactly.

Carlos:

So don't try and sell to Ben or don't expect him to pay 10 quid for a hair clip, unless he's giving it to someone who needs hair clips that he really loves and really thinks that you have the best, if you are the Patagonia of hair clips,

Ben:

I'm, I'm there.

Carlos:

Ben's there.

Carlos:

Ben is there.

Carlos:

I saw your hat this morning.

Carlos:

So I, I I'm gonna bring Frances in because we can then like hone into a specific example that, or specific use case that she may be able to illuminate.

Ben:

Hair clips and Fanta.

Carlos:

It is hair clips and Fanta because she's a girl.

Carlos:

Sorry I didn't, that was just very, very facetious and I'm gonna get it in the neck now when Frances comes on.

Ben:

I didn't say that.

Ben:

Carlos said that.

Frances:

Oh, this is flowing.

Frances:

You've got me in the best place now.

Frances:

I feel like I'm in some kind of university challenge debating society.

Frances:

Now I've got my notebook ready, ready for the fight.

Frances:

All right, let's do it.

Carlos:

Okay, so before we kick off anyone for, for those of listeners who don't know you, could you just share a little bit about who you are in reference to the topic we're talking about today.

Frances:

Hi everyone.

Frances:

My name is Frances Khalastchi and I am one of the co-founders of the Better, Bolder Braver community for coaches.

Frances:

We help coaches to feel more confident, have more clarity, and.

Frances:

Be led by joy when it comes to marketing their coaching businesses.

Frances:

And we also stand firmly behind the Ethical Move, which is a band of merry marketers who not only put happiness and joy at the, the center of their marketing, but also ethics.

Frances:

What is right for the world.

Frances:

But for me, what is most central is what is right for the coach.

Frances:

And we use marketing as a holding a mirror up to yourself.

Frances:

It's another effing self growth tool so you can understand yourself better and use all these things, including pricing to know your own worth and be proud of it.

Frances:

And my name means freedom and I'm, and I'm in the business of offering freedom to coaches by way of marketing.

Carlos:

Well, that very much aligns to what Ben and I are trying to do in terms of freeing people from their own beliefs around what they can charge and how much money they can make.

Carlos:

Not because it's about the money.

Carlos:

But coming back to you, Frances.

Carlos:

You have your own opinions about this idea of putting prices on your website and we've had some discussions around a little bit of debate, so I thought it'd be useful for to hear your perspective, particularly given the people you work with and the challenges you see they face.

Frances:

Thank you Carlos, and thank you Ben.

Frances:

I want to make it clear to everyone here that Carlos, Ben, and I are all very good friends.

Ben:

Oh, this sounds like an ominous beginning

Frances:

It's all in, it's all in the spirit of love.

Frances:

And I wanna start off by making sure that everyone here also knows that the Happy Pricing course, which I have done myself, and what Ben and Carlos stand for is very important work.

Frances:

And you've talked about the objective ideas of value this morning, and you, I think, are absolutely right in your mission on that course and in this podcast and in the community you've created to get people thinking about how pricing is really important to clarify and qualify sort of what their value is.

Frances:

And the conversations that we have had around money stories are all excellent.

Frances:

You also did say, and I think you are absolutely right, that there are no shoulds.

Frances:

And so anything that I present now as a, as a counter argument is underpinned by that as well, that there is no shoulds, and I would not want anyone leaving off from this conversation to think that I was telling people what they have to do.

Frances:

Having said all of that, here's the three reasons why I, I would, for example, absolutely want to put prices on websites or encourage people to think about doing it.

Frances:

So we, as I said, are around the ethics in marketing.

Frances:

And in this context I am talking about transparency.

Frances:

And the other thing that I think plays into the ethics is something that the Ethical Move suggests we try not to do as marketers, which is charm pricing.

Frances:

So in putting prices on websites, we are showing what we are charging and there is no room for concern about whether or not somebody's gonna be taken on a bit of a ride and charge something that someone else isn't.

Frances:

And I think you can use that very much to your advantage to my second point, which is around how putting prices on your website helps you to create a really compelling story about why you are charging what you're charging and helps people to paint a picture from the get go at whatever stage of awareness they are at about whether they need your product, about why it makes sense in the bigger picture of what they could earn if they did your thing, or how much better their life would be.

Frances:

And the third reason, and I can go into any of these in if you want me to, is in terms of burnout.

Frances:

So having pricing conversations is to invest a lot of time where it may not lead to any return for you, and I agree that it might well lead to big return.

Frances:

But then you're also, unless you're extremely brilliant in your marketing in all other areas of your communication, putting yourself in a position where you then may have conversations and people are on a completely different page about what they're willing to invest in something.

Frances:

So putting prices on websites can really help you to limit the amount of capacity you have to invest in conversations that will not lead anywhere.

Frances:

And the last bit of that three B is you wanna make it easy to buy wherever possible.

Frances:

So to have a price on a website is to make it really easy for somebody then to go to the next step and actually buy the thing.

Carlos:

So many thoughts, so many ideas, so many.

Carlos:

Uh, I'm gonna get you back.

Carlos:

We might go on for another 15 minutes cause I think I'd like to honor some of the, these points.

Ben:

I mean, the first thing that springs up for me is I, I agree completely with all those.

Ben:

I agree.

Ben:

All of you know, buying anything is fraught with risk.

Ben:

And what you need to do in the process of offering that someone is to try and remove ambiguity, to make it simple, make it clear.

Ben:

So there is for sure a good argument to say, you know, having price on there is kind of removes one, one aspect of that uncertainty and does make it easier to buy.

Ben:

So I think there is, you know, there's real goodness in that.

Ben:

I also agree that actually in many instances, for many people talking about money in having those money conversations is time consuming and emotionally charged and quite heavy.

Ben:

And so, you know, depending on the kind of infrastructure around you or the resources around you, you know, kind of minimizing the kind of pool.

Ben:

So if that's not your sweet spot of your interest and energy, then kind of spending less time on that so you can spend more time on the bit where you are able to kind of, you know, bring most value and do most useful work.

Ben:

Again, I agree with that too.

Ben:

And the thing around sort of transparency, yes.

Ben:

I think the underlying point around all of this is of course, I don't think anybody in these communities or in the work that we're doing would disagree with any of that in any way around sort of transparency.

Ben:

So I agree completely with all of those points.

Ben:

And I also agree there are many instances where that is not necessarily the only three without compromising things around transparency, without compromising things around, making it more difficult to buy and without sort of compromising what it is that gives you kind of energy.

Ben:

So I think I agree completely with all of those, and I think it's possible also to explore alternative ways, which without actually really compromising the things that you've spoken of.

Carlos:

I agree with you completely, Ben.

Carlos:

And I'd like to build on what Frances had to say, I'm sort of buying a door or a table or a tangible product, I want the price on the website so I know whether I can afford it or not.

Carlos:

Then I, you don't waste my time.

Carlos:

And that makes complete sense to me.

Carlos:

It's like why, you know, have long drawn out conversations with someone in Ikea about how much a cupboard is gonna cost.

Carlos:

I dunno.

Carlos:

But on that, and I was just gonna link it to what Frances says, like then once they see the price they can take the next step.

Carlos:

In my head, seeing the price ultimately is the last step of a series of other steps that they've got to, that helps 'em understand why they wanna work with yuo.

Carlos:

Because if I, if the first step I see is the price I have potentially nothing to go on in terms of gauging whether this is a good price for me or not, unless I've done a level of research and this is why your work Frances, around this consciousness or different levels of consciousness in marketing and understanding the problem and understanding what solutions are out there, and then understanding the value of a particular solution to me is so important to this whole idea of pricing.

Carlos:

And pricing and isolation is not helpful, or all these tactics aren't helpful if you don't do some of the other stuff, which is the marketing stuff and the storytelling stuff and the getting people to buy into you and your story, as well as the products and services and, and features and benefits that you wanna offer.

Carlos:

And so, I agree that having a price there creates a level of certainty.

Carlos:

And in terms of the transparency, the word that sprang to mind was equity.

Carlos:

The feeling like, all right, if I pay that and you pay that, and that's all cool, if I then pay this and you pay something completely different, ah, I feel a bit weird about it.

Carlos:

I can imagine that can make some people feel a bit uncomfortable, but there are instances.

Carlos:

I think also it could be a useful thing for some people as well.

Carlos:

I've seen it in way people pay it forward for things and you know, there's another way of looking at it.

Carlos:

But ultimately what I'm hearing from Frances is this, this idea of actually making it easier for people to make a decision so they feel less like, oh, I know how much it costs so I can then actually decide whether or not to, to move forward or not.

Carlos:

And then this idea of like, okay, feeling like, alright, I know what I'm getting into from the get go and not feeling like, okay, am I gonna be the only person paying this amount and other people are paying a lot less than me and how that's gonna make me feel.

Frances:

I think you talk about using the conversations to, you know, sort of get clearer on your value and, and to sort of pay respect to the, the buyer in terms of inviting them to reflect back to you what it is that it means to them to buy a product.

Frances:

So all I just wanna add to all that we have, I think said today, from my point of view is that I think you can do that.

Frances:

Without needing to sort of hide, if you like, behind a lack of pricing on your website, for example.

Frances:

Because what you're trying to do, Get people to feedback to you, and there's, there's ways that you can do that through, you know, testimonials and which you can then obviously repurpose in your marketing and, and sort of good UX design of your services and offering so that you're always kind of asking people and then iterating as you go along in order to build on what people want and need and enjoy.

Frances:

And so you don't need to rely on pricing conversations in order to, to build on your services that way.

Frances:

And furthermore, I think we should not hide behind pricing conversations and rather be proud about sort of saying, I've worked this out and I've asked people, and this is, I'm confident about this because it makes sense.

Frances:

And if you can show your workings out loud, wherever possible, you will gain trust in people.

Frances:

If you're scared that if you put prices on your website, then you'll never be able to change it, that's not true either.

Frances:

We talk in our community about nicheing for now, and I would, I would equally suggest people think about pricing for now.

Frances:

Because you know, it's so easy to change your website from day to day, but if you, for example, don't have a focus in terms of your ideal client or your audience, then you are throwing stuff all over the place and hoping it sticks somewhere.

Frances:

So even if you're just niche, Two weeks or a month for the sake of a campaign to kind of really focus your energy on content that's meaningful to a particular audience in person, you'll do better to create conversations that are meaningful and will end up paying clients that you want and will give you a sustainable business.

Frances:

And equally with pricing, you are only pricing for now.

Frances:

You can change and you can change based on the feedback that you get, which you can then talk about out loud.

Frances:

In showing why you price what you do.

Frances:

So you can use pricing on your website as a marketing tool to tell the story about why you are right for somebody and why they should be listening to what you're saying.

Carlos:

One quick question before we wrap up.

Carlos:

You said hiding behind a pricing conversation or hiding behind not having a price on your.

Carlos:

Just curious about what that meant,

Frances:

which means that what I just said wasn't clear.

Frances:

Cuz I think I need to say again that it's about like showing your workings out loud.

Frances:

You don't need to have conversations about what something means to people privately.

Frances:

You can be showing out loud what it means to people and asking people to respond to you and putting out content that says, what does this mean to you so that other people can see, rather than spending your energy, having pricing conversations with one individual to get to a price that's meaningful for them.

Frances:

You can get to a price that's meaningful for many people and have all the information that you're getting in those pricing conversations.

Frances:

You can share that out loud.

Frances:

It's helpful.

Frances:

Okay.

Frances:

People wanna know, why should I pay this?

Frances:

Why does someone else wanna pay this?

Carlos:

So what it sounds like to me is like not putting a price on your website could be just an inability to commit to.

Carlos:

And so avoiding that lack of commitment to a number is, is the hiding behind not having a price on your website and then having lots of conversations with people is again, hiding behind making a decision because you're trying to get them to tell you how much they wanna pay.

Frances:

Yeah.

Frances:

And hiding behind pricing conversations is, is hiding from the reality that you frankly would be prepared to have people pay you more for different things for the same product.

Frances:

And I would go one step further and say, if that is true, then talk about it out loud and tell people why that's a thing for you.

Frances:

If you're not gonna have pricing on your website at the least, write I do not have pricing on my website because I'd rather have conversations, because I'm happy to charge people different things.

Frances:

Why?

Frances:

Because blah, blah, blah, blah.

Carlos:

So it's very much about intentionality.

Carlos:

It sounds like being intentional about whether why you put prices or not put prices on your website.

Frances:

Yeah.

Frances:

And then be, and then proudly explain why you're on authority.

Frances:

And the reason that you do that is legit and ethical and right.

Frances:

And helpful.

Carlos:

Thank you very much Frances.

Carlos:

I will let you go now to have your lunch or whatever it is that you need to do.

Frances:

Thank you.

Carlos:

There was a coup, a question that popped up actually while Frances was talking that I thought we could tackle and then have some final reflections, Ben, to leave people with.

Carlos:

Well, as Frances said, you know, we don't want to should people, but I think we're gonna, should some people.

Carlos:

We're gonna should all over you.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

But we have a question here from Paul to begin with.

Carlos:

When others in the market hide pricing behind sales demo or sales calls, what are your thoughts on new company, a new company coming into that market and disrupting the status quo by displaying pricing?

Carlos:

And how hard is it to then increase prices later on if potential customers see numbers as devaluing the product?

Ben:

So I think the first thing that I would say is, in a way, right, everything is a signal.

Ben:

And price is a signal.

Ben:

How we sell is a signal.

Ben:

How we do the work that we do is a signal.

Ben:

These are all signals to the people who you want to do work with.

Ben:

And so, and, and also by sort of contrast signaling the people you don't want to work with.

Ben:

And I think actually, you know, if lots of people in your space, in your market, do have that information out there, then yeah, I think it does send a kind of useful, kind of polarizing signal to the market that you do do, that you do things differently.

Ben:

Because I think, you know, that is a really, that is a kind of helpful part of the sales journey that you do do something differently.

Ben:

And so the, the price that we charge, whether we talk about money, these are all kind of contrast to, you know, as a contrast to how other people in your market might do it.

Ben:

I think there is really useful signal in that.

Carlos:

The things that came up for me is if there are other people in the market hiding their prices, then there's a good chance that customers don't have a reference point.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And so if you do put prices on there, like we were saying before, there's this real intentionality around are you now gonna be the reference point, or what reference point are you gonna create for them to make it clear that what you're charging is the right value?

Carlos:

Again, that's very subjective.

Carlos:

Uh, and so there's no simple answer for you.

Carlos:

I have for you.

Carlos:

There.

Carlos:

Just a more of an awareness of what we talk about on the course is like people are always looking for comparisons.

Carlos:

This is what I learned from Ben, and so if there's no one else to compare you to in terms of price, they're gonna find something else to compare you against.

Carlos:

And, and knowing what that comparison is is important when you're gonna give them a price.

Carlos:

And if it's something that, I dunno, if no one's showing their prices, then, then again the question is like, how, how do what, what, how do people perceive value in this area?

Carlos:

What is value for them?

Carlos:

And so if it's, if there's no prices, it, because it's such a varied scale and it depends on the company person.

Carlos:

I dunno, there's some ambiguity there, which again, we talk about the cost in the course is a challenge for a customer.

Carlos:

The more ambiguity, the less likely someone's gonna make a decision.

Carlos:

So having a price on one hand is a tick cuz less ambiguity.

Carlos:

But then if there's an ambiguity about what is this?

Carlos:

Is this worth $30, a hundred dollars, 300 dollars?

Carlos:

How are they making that decision?

Carlos:

So that's a question I would ask you to try and answer.

Carlos:

And then in terms of Krenn increasing your prices, when customers say, do you know what?

Carlos:

This is too cheap for what you.

Carlos:

Cool.

Carlos:

You know, the simple crew tactic that I've seen is the whole grandfathering fathering thing.

Carlos:

Like if people bought it for $30, then say, cool, you can have it for $30 for the rest of your life, but I'm charging a hundred dollars from now.

Carlos:

If you cancel, you'll have to come back in a hundred.

Carlos:

So you either stay here for the rest of your life for 30, or you cancel now and then have to pay extra later.

Ben:

Mm.

Carlos:

And there's an appreciation there of customers supporting you at an early stage while giving you the flexibility to, to start charging what.

Carlos:

To the customers that you want.

Carlos:

And I think the other little nuance there is like maybe the customers you started off with aren't the customers that you will end with.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And because of.

Carlos:

They have a different capacity to charge a different perception of value, and so there's gonna be a different price for those people.

Ben:

Yeah, and I think also this picks up just something also that Frances, honesty and transparency goes a really long way.

Ben:

And actually I'm thinking of somebody who was on the cohort two of the Happy Pricing course, who I think had had doubled what she was earning coming out of the, the programs.

Ben:

And actually through no great sort of magic sort of wand trickery at all, other than going back to the people who she'd really been working with for about five, for more than five years, having not changed how much she was charging for that whole time, and just having an open conversation about that.

Ben:

On that basis.

Ben:

And actually found that there was scope to double what she was earning by having an open conversation with them about the fact their price hasn't changed.

Ben:

And this comes up time and time again.

Ben:

People say, if I go back to people, I'll lose clients, blah, blah, blah.

Ben:

Yeah, sure.

Ben:

Maybe you will lose clients.

Ben:

They're all, maybe you give clients a choice, to your point there.

Ben:

Maybe some clients go, I don't wanna pay that.

Ben:

And then you have a choice to say, well, either I'm going to let you continue paying at the rate you are, or you also saying to yourself, no, I'm, I'm moving on, now.

Ben:

And so, yes, you can always do it.

Ben:

You can, you know, fairness, openness, clarity.

Ben:

And then what will be will be.

Ben:

You know, some people may respond.

Ben:

Positively.

Ben:

Some people may respond to it negatively.

Ben:

You have a choice.

Ben:

You can continue with working with them or you, you are looking to, to move on.

Ben:

So it's always a live thing.

Ben:

It's always an open thing.

Carlos:

Thanks Ben for that.

Carlos:

Cuz the phrase that sprang to mind is one of the tenets of my kung fu system, which is assume nothing.

Carlos:

Don't think you can't go back to have a conversation about raising prices purely based on what's in your head.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

And I think that's, this is the interesting stuff for me around all of this, whether it's to do with pricing, whether it's to do with new products, building a business relationships, the less, we assume that everything in our head is truth, and be a bit more curious about how the people perceive the same situation or what we're doing, I think the more scope we have for a bit more flexibility and responding a bit more powerfully to, to situations.

Carlos:

And, like you said, boundaries and choice.

Carlos:

Mm-hmm.

Carlos:

, we all have choice.

Carlos:

Then it's like, I choose not to work with you.

Carlos:

I love you, but you know what?

Carlos:

This isn't gonna work for me.

Carlos:

Let's, let's call the whole thing off.

Ben:

Mm-hmm.

Ben:

kung fu pricing.

Carlos:

Kung fu pricing.

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