Episode 61
Pricing by value, not time
Beccie D'Cuhna is the founder of CourageLab and empowers leaders and teams to have courageous conversations, through mediation, training and coaching.
She took part in our first Happy Pricing course and says her business is now looking very different these days to the extent that she believes she's now pricing by value not time.
She talks with Carlos and Ben about how she's got to this point and what she needed to learn or unlearn.
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Transcript
It was a bit circular, you know, it sent take me to a join here thing and then I'd click that and then have to go all the way around again.
Speaker:No, it's very useful.
Speaker:It's important that, yeah, it's important that people have a sign up journey.
Speaker:It makes the arrival all the more enjoyable.
Speaker:For those of you listening who are trying to think about pricing differently or, and try a different perspective on, essentially on the, along the lines of the theme of last week when we were talking to Jim Rowley about, uh, working less and earning more.
Speaker:Essentially trying to create more space around your work, and how you do that by thinking about your pricing.
Speaker:So we're gonna talk a bit more to that theme and we're gonna hear more about Beccie and her journey with Courage Lab and how she's working in her business.
Speaker:Uh, and then towards the end, uh, we'll try and touch on this new pricing challenge that she has around, essentially really offering or pricing for value, because she's not, she's, she's gonna be creating something that people can use again and again and again, very much like anyone who creates software or any kind of product based pricing.
Speaker:So, we'll explore that idea and how, how that could, uh, how she could approach that.
Speaker:And hopefully anyone, uh, out there listening who has similar challenges, then, uh, they'll be of help.
Speaker:But to begin with, for those of our listeners who haven't met you before, Beccie, do you wanna have a brief summary of what you do and how you help who you help and how you help?
Speaker:So my business is called Courage Lab, and it's all about courageous culture at work.
Speaker:I guess courageous leadership, courageous relationships and conversations.
Speaker:So, there's three threads that I do.
Speaker:There's, um, I support leaders to be more courageous.
Speaker:So, and often that's around how they like facing conflict.
Speaker:Fa yeah, being more honest, uh, having difficult conversations, but doing it well.
Speaker:And then I, I also work with teams and that's about, again, it's, it is all kind of about putting stuff on the table that people aren't wanting to, they're often worried about talking about.
Speaker:So with teams, it might be about talking about differences, I use a psychometric called Lumina to help them to talk about similarities, differences, styles, points of tension, that kind of stuff.
Speaker:And then there's a courageous conflict piece, which is, I'm a mediator, so I, um, work with individuals or teams in conflict and help 'em to resolve that, facilitate their con conversations around conflict, help them out to the other side.
Speaker:And then I, I also, uh, this is fairly new thing in the last year, but I also, for a university, I'm running a mediation service for them.
Speaker:So that's kind of a big contract I won about a year ago.
Speaker:So helping them to kind of embed mediation and a better kind of conflict culture.
Speaker:So there's a real thread around conflict, but I guess I realized that it was courage, that it is all about really my work.
Speaker:'Cause it, it is all about vulnerability, honesty, empathy, moving towards the stuff that people are scared of, that they need to talk about.
Speaker:I'd be curious to hear you reframe that in terms of the change your clients feel because of the work, because there's the things that you do and the things that they learn, but then the, whether, whether we call it the impact or the shift or the transformation, it'd be interesting to hear that later.
Speaker:But before we go into that, 'cause I think it's gonna be, it's gonna inform a bit more this conversation around your pricing approach, maybe describe the journey up to now in terms of how you price.
Speaker:So like how were you working before, how were you thinking about pricing?
Speaker:How were you experiencing the business and the work?
Speaker:and then where are you now and how, what's changed?
Speaker:What's shifted?
Speaker:How does it feel now?
Speaker:And what do you thinks changed?
Speaker:So I've been, I went kind of freelance initially about four and a half years ago or something.
Speaker:And I had Really modest ambitions.
Speaker:I lit, I literally kind of had no idea.
Speaker:I was kind of thinking, oh, if I could just earn a similar amount to, you know, a part-time, salary and a charity or whatever.
Speaker:And I was doing associate work, which was quite kind of low day rate, generally, so kind of low ambitions, I guess, or modest ambitions, around both income and pricing.
Speaker:And I guess I, I've got a bit of a, I've worked in small businesses.
Speaker:I run a couple of small businesses, but mostly my background is in the not-for-profit sector.
Speaker:Like I run a couple of charities.
Speaker:before that I did a lot of campaigning and so I guess I've never been motivated by money.
Speaker:Probably had all kinds of, you know, money stories, hangups around money, not wanting to be greedy, wanting to have an impact, not wanting to price out certain, you know, wanting to be able to work with, make sure my work's affordable, all of that stuff.
Speaker:and also there was just always a real ickiness around, I actually love selling.
Speaker:I've always loved selling, 'cause for me selling's about, you know, it's relationship building, understanding needs, which is what mediators do well, we get to kind of what the client needs are quite quickly and we can build rapport.
Speaker:And I like that kind of challenge of winning people over.
Speaker:So I love selling, but the bit, and I love writing proposals, et cetera, et cetera, but, and pitching.
Speaker:But whenever I had to kind of, whenever I got to the actual price bit, it would just feel really icky and I'd do all that.
Speaker:The stuff that you two have talked about before about internal kind of negotiations.
Speaker:And I'd revisit it.
Speaker:I'd go away, ask someone, bore someone about it, say is that too high?
Speaker:Is that too low?
Speaker:Uh, and then I'd change it a million times.
Speaker:And then often would regret not charging more.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:I guess for me, that's been the big thing I've worked on.
Speaker:I've still got a long way to go, but in the last two or three years with your help you two and Laurence as well.
Speaker:So vision in Vision 2020 and that your Happy Pricing course.
Speaker:I, well, Vision 2020, the mantra that I came up with when we looked at, this is a bit embarrassing, but when we looked at, uh, you know, did the Purpose Playbook, I came up with, um, because I'm worth it, that if anyone remembers that L'Oreal advert.
Speaker:Um, and, but it was because, so for me it's, it's, it's a really big deal to price higher, and to realize actually that what I'm delivering is worth pricing higher and I don't need to feel guilty about it.
Speaker:And it's quite a big deal as well to realize that, that frees me up.
Speaker:It gives me more time, and that means I can kind of have, do more for myself, you know, as in just be more, well, happy, fulfilled, et cetera, generally.
Speaker:And that's quite a big deal.
Speaker:'cause for, for me, that's always been a, I think an issue in life
Speaker:. So that kind of, uh, that, that was the kind of mantra.
Speaker:And then when I did the Happy pricing course doing the manifesto, the money manifesto that, um, you got us to do was, was super helpful because the question about what will more money buy me?
Speaker:'Cause it kind of helped me to just realize, you know, it's not, yeah, it's about what money enables.
Speaker:And I realized that it's about, in doing that manifesto, a lot of it was about time.
Speaker:So to have more time for, um, myself, for all the fun things I wanna do, um, for family, friends, serendipity, spontaneity, to have more kind of freedom to say no, to be able to have more impact, and work with the clients I want to work with.
Speaker:And then, yeah, and what else?
Speaker:Yeah, and to be able to kind of develop products, et cetera.
Speaker:So then there are other things too.
Speaker:Learning to have more money to kind of develop and learn.
Speaker:So that really helped me.
Speaker:and it kind of, yeah.
Speaker:And I guess that I feel like the journey I've been on, I, I price, I'm pricing much higher now, but it had to, it's important to say that I remember in the early days people saying to a couple of people, even in my buddy group of Vision 2020, and said things like, oh, just double your prices.
Speaker:And I couldn't just do that.
Speaker:For me, that, I'm not the kind of person that could just do it just like that.
Speaker:It, I was like, it's more complicated than that.
Speaker:And for me, it was all about understanding the resistance around increasing my prices, kind of going a bit deeper, um, into my psyche, understanding what my hangups were, I guess, and my money stories and why I felt weird about it.
Speaker:I've still got work to do on that, but it really, it really helped to do that.
Speaker:And it met, but I have, increased my prices.
Speaker:I mean, probably, I probably have tripled them for the clients that I can do that for, which then enables me to do low cost stuff for, occasionally for charities or, or social enterprises or small businesses that I really want to work with, but can't afford to pay more.
Speaker:And what's amazing is in the last year, I basically have restructured my week so that it's all about, I'm, I'm, I am working less and I'm earning a lot more, or businesses earning a lot more.
Speaker:I'm structured by week around yoga classes, strengths training, time with people.
Speaker:I fit loads of dancing in now, rather than just this, it's not always the case.
Speaker:Some weeks are frantic, but it used to just be this frenetic pace of back-to-back delivery that I wasn't charging enough for.
Speaker:Whereas now it just feels more spacious and I've got time to kind of be, I've got a bit more time to think to do, I don't know, strategy stuff to do creative thinking.
Speaker:So I'll stop there.
Speaker:I think you said brief, Carlos.
Speaker:That is great.
Speaker:I think it's useful to have that exploration, because I think what I'm hearing there was your own reflection as well as sort of like summarizing and it's important I think for people to, I believe some hear it, there's a journey and it's, it's a unfolding process rather than like, boom, boom, this is how it works.
Speaker:Actually, only by doing it you discover what it is you need to change.
Speaker:Isn't necessarily at the beginning, you know, oh, this is what I'm gonna do.
Speaker:It's like you, you have a vague idea what needs to change.
Speaker:Then you do stuff and then you realize more and more what's what's important.
Speaker:What was coming, becoming clear for me, um, listening to you listening were kind of two aspects to it.
Speaker:Um, there is, knowing how to price well.
Speaker:So it isn't just about doubling your prices, it's like, you know, you can pick numbers outta the area, whatever you like, but whether someone pays them or not, that's a different question.
Speaker:So there's how you price well, so people will pay that price.
Speaker:And then why you even try to price better.
Speaker:What is motivating that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And so what I feel is important here for anyone watching is, you know, a lot of the things you've written down here feels like stuff that you're doing in terms of your, these are needs.
Speaker:You had a need for space, a need for agency, a need for connection.
Speaker:A need for impact.
Speaker:These things that are very much about you.
Speaker:But by meeting those, you are able to work better, as I understand.
Speaker:You know, you're feeling more energized, you're feeling you're working on the business 'cause you have more space, you're able to say no to the wrong clients because that will mean that you can say more yeses to the right clients or even focus better, do better work with the right clients.
Speaker:And also even say yes to the, the clients you want to invest in that can't afford your work, but you would rather to contribute to them because you have abundance.
Speaker:And so there's this thing around doubling your prices to earn more money.
Speaker:And there's a thing around working better with money in order to be able to use it better and also use your time better as I see.
Speaker:So there's something here around the softer stuff that people might not think about.
Speaker:They jump straight into the tactics, how to sell better, how to raise a prices, you know, double price or whatever it is, and not really understand why they, why they really motivated it.
Speaker:Not from a greed perspective, but from a energetic sustainability point of view.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and that that's maybe that to reflect on is like that, that contrast and, well, I will, I'll, this is how I hear it, is like there's this treadmill or hamster wheel of work, experience of work where it's like just doing the work, doing that, doing the work, doing the work because
Speaker:you just need to, you got certain amount of time, that time equals money, and if you don't work that much time, you don't get that much money.
Speaker:As opposed to shifting it to where it feels like more space, because you've somehow unattached every hour in your day to how much money goes into your bank account.
Speaker:There's still work to be done there, but definitely the, a lot of the work I deliver now, you know, I can, it is more pricing by value and packaging it up rather than day rate.
Speaker:So things like my Courageous Leaders program that is my main, a big income source now probably, yeah, big biggest chunk of my income source.
Speaker:And that's, it's, it's, it's kind of a joy to deliver.
Speaker:It's not, um, I wouldn't say easy 'cause it still requires, I put a lot into it, but it's, it's a couple of hour session each week, not a full day of really intense mediation that is utterly exhausting and you feel broken at the end.
Speaker:I still do that bit too, but, you know, it's, that's more minimal the amount of that that I do.
Speaker:So the, yeah, it, it's a different way of, um.
Speaker:And it is about my relationship with time and my relationship with money, I think, to being really cooked, really related.
Speaker:The other thing that I, I should add into this, if I were to refresh this kind of manifesto is I've started to shed the tasks that I don't, that I'm crap at or don't like doing.
Speaker:So the lovely Dora who's I think listening in, she, uh, she's started working with me a couple of months ago as an, as my ops manager.
Speaker:And I've just realized yesterday I suddenly had this realization, I want a bus, I want someone to help with business development.
Speaker:'Cause I've got like, there's just so many opportunities and although I like doing business development, I haven't got time for it all.
Speaker:So just that it's opened up possibilities now it's not.
Speaker:And, and that kind of shift towards, I guess it's partly 'cause I became an limited company and stuff, so it's now thinking like a business rather than a.
Speaker:Solo trader or freelancer, but it, it's opened up more time again and it make, lets me do the stuff that gradually I'll be doing the stuff that I love doing that energizes me rather than the stuff that drains me.
Speaker:Like admin, finance, having a bookkeeper and an accountant, all that stuff.
Speaker:so that I'm not up till midnight on self-assessment deadline day yesterday.
Speaker:Yeah, no, I'm hearing there very much again of like, managing your energy, uh.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And investing in the way that allows you to manage your, and focus your energy in the places where it's best used.
Speaker:One thing I'd like to maybe just explore for people is, is this mind shift, let's call it, from working where you are basically giving, the way I understand it, when you're writing a proposal, you're essentially sending them a bunch of day rates saying it's gonna take this much time to do this thing, versus the Courageous Leaders program and selling that.
Speaker:And you said there's a big shift in that, you know, one hand it sounds like you're spending less time delivering the work, but there's also, is there something that you can reflect on and how you have thought yourself about the value or how you've communicated it or how others perceive it?
Speaker:So the reason why I developed the Courage Leaders Program, it was partly about kind of a more sustainable income base.
Speaker:But it was also because, um, after a while, it, it's just a pre, it's, when you mediate too much, it's really depressing to see the hurt, the unnecessary kind of damage that's done to relationships and to teams.
Speaker:And the hurt that some of it can be kind of repaired, but some is never undone.
Speaker:Like it's, it's traumatic.
Speaker:That kind of toxic conflict and realizing that this was avoidable.
Speaker:And nearly always it's avoidable.
Speaker:It would be avoidable if leaders had the courage to confront rather than ignore it and shut it under the carpet.
Speaker:So for me, the Courageous Leaders program was, was mostly about helping leaders to address artificial harmony.
Speaker:So rather than, um, and to just even recognize that it's there, 'cause I see it everywhere, particularly in organizations like in the public sector and not-for-profit sector everyone kind of wants to be nice to each other, but they're not really speaking their minds.
Speaker:and Instead they gossip about each other behind each other's backs or everything kind of builds up and, and then overflows or explodes.
Speaker:So it, it was about equipping leaders to have the courage to kind of face that, and to build psychologically safe works workplaces where, where stuff can be dealt with early and constructively.
Speaker:And to realize that conflict can be healthy, it doesn't have to be avoided at all costs.
Speaker:And what I've, what was interesting was, so that was my motivation, I guess, primarily as well as, like I said, sustainable income and easier kind of life, work life.
Speaker:And what I've realized is that's what really attracts people to it.
Speaker:I think that's really resonated.
Speaker:Almost everyone in my last program said it was the artificial harmony piece in the marketing that stood out for them, and realizing that actually that's what, you know, they, they realized that, oh, I didn't realize, but I've got that.
Speaker:I, I think my team has artificial harmony or, um, and so.
Speaker:Was the question, Carlos?
Speaker:I've forgotten the question.
Speaker:Was it about Well, there's,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Where I'm trying to focus us on is this, if I was gonna put it simplistically, when you're selling your time, sometimes it's like quite customized and, and each project is slightly different and you are, there's a, an element of ambiguity on how long something's gonna last or how long it's gonna take, and so you're always repro reposing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Where I feel with the Courageous Leaders program, you are kind of dictating the journey, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's quite clear and packaged and, and defined.
Speaker:So yeah, that, that contrast, I dunno if that's the contrast that you felt in terms of not only how you price, but also how you deliver and how it feels.
Speaker:I think the main difference probably is that it means it's a bit easier, um, because, because I've kind of defined it.
Speaker:Probably mostly easier for me, but maybe it's easier for the client as well that they trust that they're gonna be taken on a journey and, um, there, there is that kind of loop there, flow to it.
Speaker:Whereas the, I suppose the bespoke work, which I love doing, and a lot of my work is quite bespoke, you know, if I go in and work with a team, if they're in conflict or not, they could be in a good place, but they wanna kind of become even better as a team, or if I'm coaching a leadership team or something, or culture change kind of projects that they're more bespoke.
Speaker:And I guess what I've realized with those is they're really hard to price because there's this, there's a big discovery phase or it's a constant discovery phase.
Speaker:Um, so, for instance, if there's a team mediation, it, it's always bespoke.
Speaker:It's highly, highly complex, high, high stakes environment where you've gotta build so much safety because it, you know, you're bringing a load of people with loads of complex in, into a room together.
Speaker:And it could go really wrong if it's not handled really skillfully.
Speaker:So it's bespoke in that every step of the way, every bit of information I gather, I redesign the process.
Speaker:And what I've realized is it's really hard to, well, I, I need to get better at costing that in.
Speaker:I'm trying to do that costing in the discovery and the rediscovery, but it is quite hard, 'cause often clients wanna know from the beginning it's gonna be this amount.
Speaker:And until, you know, a bit, they don't really, they don't wanna sign up to a massive bill, even though they know that the problem is a really big ticking time bomb.
Speaker:So the Courage Leaders program was a bit of a breath of fresh air in that respect, that now I've got a kind of, the open program that I ran led to some in-house programs, and now I've got a couple that run every year for an NHS Trust.
Speaker:So that gives me like a base level of income.
Speaker:It's just quite straightforward and the selling's all done for me.
Speaker:I just help them to kind of do a bit of internal marketing that they, they recruit the leaders onto the program, so it is a very different thing.
Speaker:I think where this relates to pricing potentially is what's, you know, like you are saying Beccie, where clients get kind of edgy is they don't know what something is gonna turn into.
Speaker:So, you know, it's ambiguity, the uncertainty of that, and of course, none of us like ambiguity or uncertainty.
Speaker:And so the reason we often default to pricing by sort of putting a time cap on something or a time label on something is it feels, you know, it's a known thing.
Speaker:So it's like, okay, we can get out of the ambiguity, we'll just stick a sort of price on a day rate, for example.
Speaker:Uh, so that's just a, a means a method to kind of get out of the ambiguity.
Speaker:And like, but what you are talking about on those kind of bigger things where it isn't really clear, so it's harder to cut a price because you don't know how big, messy, complicated, you know, how much is needs to be untangled to get the client to the place that they want.
Speaker:And it's how you get into that journey with them where they don't also feel like it's just a hugely unclear fucking thing, which, you know, is, you know, difficult for them too.
Speaker:And so in that, even in that sense, actually, it's probably helped a little bit by putting some ideas of product to the thing so that there is a discovery phase, you know, and a client might understand, oh, in a situation like this, I've had clients ultimately that've invested X, you know, giving them a high kind of figure.
Speaker:But the way into this is a distinct thing around discovery so that they can feel that there is some sort of containment to it, uh, or may potentially kind of make it easier, easier for the client.
Speaker:There's a, a really fascinating story that I was hearing from you, Beccie, around the, the purpose or the mission of courageous leaders.
Speaker:Because I heard this real, personal difficulty and suffering that you would experience going through difficult mediation projects where things really got so bad and not only bad for the people within the business, but you, you were feeling it as well.
Speaker:And that was, that was draining.
Speaker:And what I heard there was like, I don't want to see this happen.
Speaker:How can I prevent this from happening?
Speaker:Well, by educating people to have, and particularly it is to have these conversations earlier so that it doesn't end up there.
Speaker:So in one of the things that we talk about in the course is like, what's the cost of doing nothing?
Speaker:You have now, I'm sure, hundreds of stories that illustrate the cost of not doing the Courageous Leaders program.
Speaker:So from a value perspective or describing the value, it feels like there's, you've got quite a lot of fodder there.
Speaker:Another aspect of it for me is like what Ben was talking about, I think there's a, a well-defined process for want of a better, so you have, you can create a sense of safety because you know where they're starting at point A and where you want to get them at point B, and you have this container within which they can play in, which you can play in order to get them to that place.
Speaker:And then I think it meets the need for connection and maybe a bit of creativity while within this safe, safe container of clarity that we are gonna get you from A to B and.
Speaker:That that's helping you sell, I'm assuming it's helping your customer understand the value.
Speaker:Um, it's also helping you manage your energies because you don't have this unfolding project that changes every so often because you discover something new
Speaker:. But with that, and this is I think for many people, well, I'm speaking maybe for myself, maybe for Ben.
Speaker:I think a lot of people in our community, there's something about that creative present emergent project that we also enjoy.
Speaker:If you were just doing Courageous Leaders program again and again, and again, and again and again, I can imagine at some point you're being a.
Speaker:And there's something about taking on some really chunky, impactful, you're in it type project.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The challenge being is that if you're always doing that and you're not getting paid what you need to be paid in order to sustain that work, then there's a good chance you'll burn out, because you're suffering emotional pain that they're going through, and you're managing the uncertainty of trying to work out what's next.
Speaker:And so you are always, you are always on, always on high alert thinking, all right, what's needed next?
Speaker:What's needed next?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So what I'm hearing your journey is at the moment is having this interesting blend of meeting this need for connection and impact at this deep level where you're really transforming people because you're seeing what's happening on the ground, to a level of safety and space
Speaker:for yourself, and trying to see how that turns out into different ways that you can deliver that, that means that all your needs are met.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's, that's spot on.
Speaker:I think it's that, um, I mean, I love, I love kind of variety and I love complexity.
Speaker:And I always feel this kind of in this tension between, on the one hand, I, you know, I like being busy, I like being really stretched.
Speaker:I'm, I like doing work that I learn from, I deliberately take on.
Speaker:I often say no, I outsource now to a small team of mediators any easy cases or rather never easy, you know, relatively straightforward cases.
Speaker:'cause I'm only interested in the ones that are really tough and meaty and kind of seemingly intractable, the ones that are heading to an employment tribunal or whatever, or worse.
Speaker:And uh, 'cause I love that.
Speaker:I love that feeling of kind of turning the impossible around.
Speaker:But as you say, it can't, I can't do that all the time.
Speaker:And I also couldn't do the Courageous Leaders program all the time.
Speaker:I, I can't do, I worked out, I could kind of run it four times a year no more really, 'cause it will become a bit kind of stale.
Speaker:I dunno if it becomes stale, but it's different people.
Speaker:But I, maybe I just.
Speaker:It'll be too much.
Speaker:So it's that kind of having that variety and as you say, pricing enough for the, the kind of exhaustion of the work that is really bespoke, kind of in the moment facilitation that require, you know, it takes every ounce of energy and expertise and people can't do it.
Speaker:Most people can't do that work 'cause they haven't been doing it as long as me.
Speaker:That was, that helped me as well, when I was thinking about my pricing, was just to realize actually if somebody said, what's that kind of quote around, they're not paying for, you know, two days of your time or whatever they're paying for, for me it's like 20 plus years of experience as a mediator and a leader.
Speaker:So I, I, that gave me confidence actually to realize that actually I am.
Speaker:I need to, this is premium.
Speaker:They could get somebody else cheaper, but they won't get, they won't get the outcome they're looking for, um, unless they get someone that's really experienced.
Speaker:It's quite specialist.
Speaker:So that helped.
Speaker:So, yeah, and what I've, what you're saying as well resonated Carlos around that what I've realized is I want, this year, I, I really want to have both the depth and the breadth.
Speaker:Again, I kind of want it all.
Speaker:Um, and I need to get better at saying no in some ways 'cause of this.
Speaker:But I, I love doing the deep work, um, that brings about kind of deep change.
Speaker:And sometimes that's the bespoke work around working intensively with teams or the leadership team or something.
Speaker:It's also the Courageous Leaders program, although it's easier to run.
Speaker:It is, it is deep kind of change and it's getting to know the clients really well, et cetera.
Speaker:So I love that.
Speaker:Um, but I also, but it's only a small number that I can, you know, if I have eight to 12 people on a Courageous Leaders program, it's only so much impact it can have, or it has deep impact, but not broad impact.
Speaker:So what I want to do alongside that is to build a broader offering around things like Lumina, the psychometric that I use, which is a product that I have that I, I buy questionnaire and then I sell it to clients.
Speaker:so it's a, it is a nice product to have and then I can put, I can offer services around it, but I don't have to offer m around it.
Speaker:It could be done, you know, it could be offered in theory to, well, a whole company could, could use it or a whole, you know, NHS Trust, ev everyone, every staff member could, could do it.
Speaker:And I could just do a couple of pre-recorded webinars, and then there's optional team days if they wanted them or, or training around it.
Speaker:So I'm, I'm quite excited about the breadth bit alongside the depth because that's the bit that's scalable.
Speaker:'cause obviously my, there's only so much I can deliver with that deep stuff and, and it has to be me that delivers some of it.
Speaker:So I wanna scale the other bits.
Speaker:And things like the, what you talked about earlier, Carlos, the, I've had a couple of inquiries through about, um, that are kind of to do with either addressing conflict culture of kind of how conflict is handled, maybe unhealthy conflict or psychological safety, and realizing that
Speaker:there's a bullying and harassment kind of culture that wants to, they want to address and they want people to speak up and feel safe to speak up.
Speaker:But they wanna kind of get that out there to a, a wide audience.
Speaker:So it's not kind of in-depth training or face-to-face training.
Speaker:It would be something prerecorded that any staff member could watch.
Speaker:And I find that anyway, that, yeah, that's, that's scalable again, but it's kind of hard to know how to price that kind of thing.
Speaker:I'm thinking of this how everyone wants a piece of me, but there's only 24 hours in the day.
Speaker:So what can I give them of myself that many, many people can benefit from, um, and creates the change that is appropriate given how I'm delivering it?
Speaker:Because I think one of the things for me around this is like, this is never gonna replace sitting in front of Beccie and having her just talk you through this process, but at the same time.
Speaker:Is better than not doing anything.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I mean, I should say I'm a bit lazy when it comes to, I'm never gonna be someone who develops like a, a truly self-paced course, to be honest.
Speaker:I'm thinking very light touch like a couple of webinars.
Speaker:You know, actually, and it is also, it is true, Carlos, 'cause we've also been sort of playing around with this idea, given with all of the sort of teaching that is on the Happy Pricing course and the opportunity to make that available to people who might want to just sort of explore the journey on their own.
Speaker:And of course, you know, the, the thing is that it all requires experimentation, doesn't it?
Speaker:Like we can have ideas about what the value of that might be.
Speaker:We can have ideas about what somebody might be willing to pay, uh, for that.
Speaker:Oftentimes, as with everything, the ideas that we have are of course, our ideas.
Speaker:They're not the idea really of the person who might buy.
Speaker:So the thing that we do need to do, at some point, we are gonna need to take a punt and say, you know, we think the value of this is likely to be.
Speaker:X.
Speaker:Uh, and then we need to, we need to kind of take that to the world and we need to see what the world says to our assessment on it.
Speaker:I think the only thing that is worthwhile keeping in mind is often when we start that journey, the lenses that we bring our, our, they are our lenses.
Speaker:They are our subjective judgment about what is right, what isn't right, what's too much, what's not enough at some, at some point, as soon as possible, we need to take that to the people who we are hoping will benefit from it.
Speaker:And we need to get into a dialogue with them.
Speaker:We need to see is this, is, this is the, is the assumption that we have about what this is worth?
Speaker:Do you agree?
Speaker:And from that point, the conversation can develop and then you can get to a place of settling on an actual price.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And what about, Ben, what I find tricky is obviously with my, what I'm.
Speaker:B2B obviously in the, it's not individuals pay.
Speaker:It's, um, so it would be, say a company that might have, I don't know, say they've got 200 staff or something and they, in buying something, say a, um, a webinar, um, that they can all staff would watch or, you know, training that over a webinar that all staff would watch, they then kind of have it forever for all future staff too.
Speaker:And in one example they didn't really have any sense of, I tried to ask kind of questions around, I did ask questions around like, budget or expectations around, you know, and have they kind of bought anything like that before and they had no idea really either.
Speaker:And it feels like it's just like, you know, finger in the air kind of stuff.
Speaker:It's like, where do you, where do you start to price that?
Speaker:Because it, again, it's not in terms of time, it's not loads of time to get to do something like that.
Speaker:But in terms of the value that goes on forever, it's big isn't it?
Speaker:If it impacts on it, we start every future staff member forever.
Speaker:And it's like, do you license it?
Speaker:There is the, you know, the, how you do it, licensing one price, you know, there's, there seems to be a lot of ways to, to actually get someone to pay.
Speaker:That I think for me, just leaning back onto the course and all the things that we talk about there.
Speaker:At some level they're gonna compare what you are offering to something else.
Speaker:So you, you kind of need to know how much are they spending on other similar webinars, trainings, you know?
Speaker:And what is the agreement there?
Speaker:Is it forever one time purchase?
Speaker:Is there a licensing deal to give, you know, alright, there's a number that might be in their heads when they're thinking about you.
Speaker:Then there's what you do.
Speaker:What is the outcome you're creating with this, this webinar?
Speaker:You know, how does that compare to the outcomes you create, um, one-to-one, whether it's the mediation or Courageous Leaders?
Speaker:Because if it's like Courageous Leaders, but for 250 people, then you can easily say, if you do this courageous leaders, it will cost this much per person.
Speaker:And so if it costs 2,500 per person to do Courageous Leaders, but you want all of your people to do that, does 200 pounds per person sound a good deal?
Speaker:it's, it's about the change you wanna make, and it's not one-to-one and not me, and it's not, you know, gonna be as intensive and deep, but we're still gotta get you to that change.
Speaker:And is that worth for 250 people?
Speaker:50 grand?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:And that's, and that will only, you'll only know if that's, well, that frames it based on what you do with Courage Leaders.
Speaker:Then it's a case of them like, well, how much do they also spend for their other training?
Speaker:Do they spend 200 half a head for other trainings?
Speaker:And how does that compare to the change that you're making in the business compared to these other trainings?
Speaker:'Cause if it's like, I don't know, health and safety and how to not use a fire extinguisher badly, I don't know, well, what's that worth to them really?
Speaker:Mm-Hmm.
Speaker:Versus having your story, which I think is really important, avoiding this toxic, uh, environment where everyone's blaming each other or you going to a tribunal, you know, if you never had a tribunal case for the next 10 years, how much is that worth to you?
Speaker:So, yeah, so there's, there's like, I think what, what Ben talks about, there's these anchor points, these framings that, again, help tell the story of what value could be, because it is, who knows because it's customer, customer, but at some point you're gonna have to take a punt based on a particular type of customer.
Speaker:And I think the other thing about software is like, it will depend on the customer, isn't it?
Speaker:It's like if you're gonna go for a nonprofit or they, they won't be able to pay the same amount as a, as a corporate.
Speaker:And so it depends how you wanna make your money, who you wanna serve.
Speaker:'Cause if you wanna serve corporates, then you are gonna have a different conversation and different thing.
Speaker:And then if you're gonna send nonprofits, then that's a, well, again, it's where you start.
Speaker:Because if you start with nonprofits and then you have a certain price level and you wanna go to corporates, then how do you manage that conversation?
Speaker:I think from, from my side, I think everything you were saying there is, you know, is, is really, is really good 'cause it is about how you get into the conversation and uh, at some point, you know you are going to need to offer something, you know, e either in an ideal world, they do have an idea about budget, then you have a reference point to work fraud.
Speaker:But oftentimes, like we know, well 99% of the time they'll, a client will say they don't, even though that isn't true.
Speaker:So all you know, all the task then is, is to have some reference points that we can use to draw them into a dialogue about it.
Speaker:And as Carlos was talking about, you have some really good reference points, you know, with Courageous Leaders, you know how much that costs to do it for eight people.
Speaker:And that's a start of a conversation, you know, when I do this for eight people, it costs them x and you know, for sure they're gonna, you know, probably be thinking, oh God, that times 200, two times 250 is ridiculous.
Speaker:But you, you are into the conversation.
Speaker:And also kind of understanding, you know, the, the type of organizational goals does make a difference.
Speaker:You know, is this coming out of a budget?
Speaker:You know, even if they're not, they don't know what, how much they want spend this, do they have a trading budget, uh, or do they not have a training budget?
Speaker:Do they not do anything like that?
Speaker:Are they a nonprofit?
Speaker:Are they not a nonprofit?
Speaker:All of these sorts of things do, are kind of referenced where it's their ways into the conversation.
Speaker:And I think that's a kind of big part of, obviously what we talk about on the course is about how you get into the dialogue.
Speaker:And I think the examples that Carla shared are, are really good ways into the dialogue.
Speaker:Hazel would love to come on and say something.
Speaker:And I, I want, and the fact that we have someone so excited to actually say something, they've raised their hand, I don't want to ignore.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:So before we end, um, I'm just gonna invite Hazel to, to come on stage.
Speaker:Hi.
Speaker:Um, so yeah, this is, this is really interesting and I just wanted to jump in 'cause I actually have a call tomorrow.
Speaker:It's my third call with a very big company and I've already priced it.
Speaker:Um, it's for five leaders and it's a pilot.
Speaker:Um, and it's to run a program with them.
Speaker:And they've said they don't have the budget and they need to find the budget.
Speaker:So I'm kind of like, it's a big company and I know they're gonna talk about price.
Speaker:Um, so I wondered if you had, I I think it's hugely val, valuable to think how you value this, uh, 'cause I've got 30 years corporate experience, um, not-for-profit and charity.
Speaker:And I loved how you said you, you have to value that over and above, because I'm a coach as well.
Speaker:So that's why I'm getting so excited because everything that Beth has said I think is amazing.
Speaker:So have you got any tips around demonstrating that value when you've already priced it?
Speaker:'cause I imagine they're gonna try and negotiate down.
Speaker:Uh, well, I guess a question that I had is what changes for them as a result of you doing this work?
Speaker:It's all about their mindset.
Speaker:So it's all about how they show up on any given day, um, uh, in work I was, I was, um, with mindset, how, how much of their time is wasted because they are getting angry or frustrated or, getting triggered by conflicts?
Speaker:I mean, basically what Beccie was talking about was like, that's really interesting because I know myself when I worked in the corporate world that people don't say what they think and sometimes I don't say it in the best way.
Speaker:So I think it's helping them reset.
Speaker:So it's getting back from a place of, you know, if I'm feeling guilt or anger or frustration or whatever, how, how quickly can I learn from that?
Speaker:You know, what's the goal in that?
Speaker:And I can reset to choose a different path.
Speaker:So it's almost like resetting your brain.
Speaker:Um, so you're choosing a different choice.
Speaker:So ultimately it impacts, it impacts your relationships, it impacts your wellbeing, uh, it impacts your energy and how you show up at work, so that you're more able to say no.
Speaker:Uh, you're, you're, you're able to be less of a controller.
Speaker:'Cause I don't know about you, but how many people have, are controllers in the workplace, like leaders?
Speaker:And you're more able to operate from a place of empathy for both yourself and others.
Speaker:You're more creative, you're more curious, uh, you think of the bigger picture, and then you're able to take, um, calm, clearheaded action.
Speaker:So I, I think it's got a huge impact.
Speaker:I mean, it's actually someone else's program, and they've done all the research around it.
Speaker:It's basically, um, from Stanford University, it's all been researched, evidenced, and, um, this guy in America's got a whole program around this.
Speaker:So it's basically a six week mental reboot course.
Speaker:what, what do you wish that you'd said?
Speaker:If you could, um, go back and say what you'd, what you wish you'd said.
Speaker:Does that make sense around the expertise that you bring?
Speaker:Do you know what I, 'cause we didn't talk about price.
Speaker:We very much focused on what's this program about?
Speaker:Why I am so passionate about it.
Speaker:And, um, I dunno if there was anything else I wish I'd said, I think okay, because I sent it by email, the pricing.
Speaker:So I think if anything in the email follow up, I might have put a range instead of just one figure.
Speaker:A bit like when they advertise job adverts, you know how they give a sliding scale?
Speaker:Sometimes they say, you know, you're gonna get paid between this and this.
Speaker:So it allows a bit more negotiation.
Speaker:Um, but I always believe in starting high and then you negotiate downwards.
Speaker:So maybe I would've pitched it higher based on this conversation today, because I think it does offer incredible value seeing that is just a pilot, so there's still opportunity to negotiate going forward.
Speaker:I guess my, my last question is how big is the organization?
Speaker:Massive.
Speaker:I need to check out how many employees, but it's massive.
Speaker:It's a very big company in the UK.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So they're definitely not short of money.
Speaker:Definitely not short of money.
Speaker:Definitely not.
Speaker:Uh, they already have a coaching program through, uh, BetterUp.
Speaker:So they use BetterUp as a coaching program.
Speaker:So I know they'll have invested a shitload of money for that.
Speaker:Cool.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Thank you Hazel.
Speaker:Um, uh, I'm gonna ask you to drop off the call now.
Speaker:Um, thank you for your question.
Speaker:I'm gonna get, basically we're gonna have a little bit of a discussion and share some thoughts for you to hopefully help you with the conversation tomorrow.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:No worries.
Speaker:Thank you very much.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Based on the information, I know we could probably dive in really deeply into Hazel's case 'cause there's a lot of, lot of scope there I feel for exploration.
Speaker:But based on what you've heard, any thoughts or feedback?
Speaker:Mine's very brief.
Speaker:'cause I'm sitting here feeling like a little bit of a fraud.
Speaker:Like I, 'cause I ha have the same thing that Hazel has, you know, as in so often I'm like, damn it, I so should have, should have gone higher.
Speaker:So I'm definitely not the expert here just to put that out there.
Speaker:Um, but all I wanted to say really was that I, I just think it sounds like a, um, Hazel was really, well courageous.
Speaker:She, the, just that kind of initial conversation that she had, that kind of, it sounds like I hear a, a confidence to kind of generate that lead in the first place, and then to, to see that opportunity and then to, you know, and be quite ambitious in terms of the, and confident in what she can deliver.
Speaker:So it sounds like it's just, as you were saying earlier, Carlos, it.
Speaker:In summary, it's just, it's an opportunity to learn.
Speaker:And the only other thing I was gonna say was that I kind of think there's still an opportunity to say in the meeting, I've priced this, uh, just to make you aware, I've priced this lower than I normally would for an organization like yours, a company like yours, because
Speaker:dot dot dot, you know, I really wanna work with you and we're piloting it, but if it leads to more work, it the, we'll review that.
Speaker:Um, I don't kind of think it's too late to say something like that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Um, I guess so given the conversation tomorrow, I think picking up on, uh, something that Becca was saying, I think that, um, sort of trusting in your comfort, trusting in your expertise and your experience, Hazel, I think feels kind of really important.
Speaker:I don't think you need to, um, feel like you need to, I don't whether you do feel like this, I, there isn't a need to oversell it, but I was asking the question around what changes for them.
Speaker:For me, one of the most striking things that, that you said in that was, you know, and I know you didn't word it like this, I'm actually kind of bastardizing the words based on some of the questions that we asked.
Speaker:But you were saying something along the lines, you know, what is, what's the, what's the kind of cost of that ongoing conflict and anger that your people experience?
Speaker:And I think that is something which will kind of resonate with all of them.
Speaker:Would resonate with all of the individual leaders you were speaking to, would resonate with the HR people.
Speaker:If you are speaking to that, there's a real problem there that, uh, people will identify is something they want to make go away.
Speaker:And whenever anyone is buying anything, it's because they're trying to change something.
Speaker:They're trying to make something go away or to kind of turn up something else.
Speaker:But in this case, there's a real clear feeling for me that that actually, that alone, making that frustration, that anger, that discontent that people have in the kind of interpersonal space, particularly among leaders, making that go away opens up a huge kind of pool of opportunity for an organization.
Speaker:And so kind of trusting actually that is the value of, of what you are doing.
Speaker:And so you don't, in a way, you don't need to kind of oversell, you don't need to push too hard.
Speaker:Actually, the, the problem is revealed just by asking them that question.
Speaker:Uh, and I think that goes to the heart of what the value is.
Speaker:And I think the suggestion that, that Beccie made is, is really good.
Speaker:You might, whatever it is you priced, if you priced it at whatever, whatever, 200 pounds, whatever, you know, saying this is typically a thousand pound, uh, engagement is important because yeah, it does set the precedent for before.
Speaker:And I think the final thing I would say is they may want to try and negotiate you down, but actually you don't need to go down.
Speaker:You can say no.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:That's a really powerful place to be in.
Speaker:And hopefully Hazel, you're not in a space where you are really dependent on the money, and so you're coming from a place of fear, uh, 'cause that's not a great place to negotiate price.
Speaker:So with within this context of essentially, ideally not negotiating yourself down or discounting, defending in a sense your price, and I'm gonna tell you actually now what, rather than defending a price, why I think you're gonna be, well, one way to look about tomorrow
Speaker:is a conversation that helps them tell a story to themselves that makes them feel that they can accept the price that you offered.
Speaker:It might be you are too cheap.
Speaker:They might tell a story, or you might then get into a story where they actually realize, oh wow, this is a massive bargain.
Speaker:And so there's something around sensing into that and really listening into how they're experiencing the number that you've offered them.
Speaker:What I was curious about is that you said they already are doing some training through this other BetterUp program.
Speaker:You know, a conversation I'd be interested to have with them is, what are they getting from that program?
Speaker:Where are, are they at the beginning?
Speaker:Where do they want to be at the end?
Speaker:Are they getting what they want at the end?
Speaker:And, and how much are they spending on that?
Speaker:And so if they're spending loads on that and the, the outcome or the change, then you can tell, you know, you can get 'em to tell the story of the change that they're, that that program's making in their business.
Speaker:And then get 'em to tell the story of the change that they think your program's gonna do in their business.
Speaker:And if there's any overlap or any similarity, then you've got a benchmark.
Speaker:And, and your, and how your price compares to the price to compared to that program is gonna give you a feel for their capacity to spend or how much they are comfortable to spend, I feel.
Speaker:'cause they're, again, we're going back to the stuff we talk in the course, where what are they anchoring to and, and how are they defining value?
Speaker:And I think here it's less about what's in your proposal and more about what's in their heads.
Speaker:And so to a certain extent, the conversation tomorrow I feel is about you helping them tell the story of why they would pay a certain price.
Speaker:And then, you know, ultimately Ben saying is like, you can also say no, and being able to that passage, there's something very interesting about saying no and then seeing what happens next.
Speaker:Scary stuff.
Speaker:Hazel, thank you very much for being honest and your, um, openness here on happy pricing.
Speaker:Thank you very much, Beccie, for your honesty and openness here.
Speaker:I really hope anyone listening to this is, has got some useful information and at least e courage to take these steps forward to pricing a bit more confidently.
Speaker:So before we leave some, maybe some closing, a closing thought for you.
Speaker:What has become more clear for you, Beccie, or what have you appreciated from this conversation?
Speaker:Well, it's been a couple of things.
Speaker:It's been really lovely just to reflect a bit, you know, just to, um, look back and do that with you.
Speaker:'Cause you, you two definitely not, you know, not trying to sell you both too much, but you have been really impactful in terms of all of this for me.
Speaker:It's made a huge difference the, the support and mentoring that you've offered wisdom along the way.
Speaker:So it's been really nice to reflect on it.
Speaker:And in terms of kind of then takeaways, I think for me, I probably will listen again to some of this.
Speaker:'cause I think some of those, all of those questions actually that just came out kind of, um, when we were talking about the, the gift that keeps on giving thing, the Beccie forever, uh, mostly makes me laugh actually, because usually when I mediate, people are like, I hope they kind of say the nicest possible way, we hope we'll never need to see you again.
Speaker:I'm like, I get it.
Speaker:Um, but with this, it's like they, they'll see me forever.
Speaker:So, but like a lot of the, it makes me realize I don't ask enough of those questions.
Speaker:I need to be kind of a bit bolder in asking some of those questions.
Speaker:Like some of the ones that you, you were saying there, Ben, um, uh, around, because even when they don't know, realizing that actually they, yeah, they'll have, well knowing where the budget comes from and all of that stuff and trying to find anything that's a point of comparison,
Speaker:that if they don't have an anchor point or a whatever, we call it a point of reference, to give them all and then just hear their feedback.
Speaker:Looking forward to hearing that future episode in the making.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it is really good hearing the journey that you've got on, uh, Beccie.
Speaker:'Cause obviously we spend a lot of time wibbling on about this sort of rubbish by this.
Speaker:Uh, and, uh, so it's gonna, it's really good to hear somebody's journey played back.
Speaker:And, uh, I know like from what you know, the, what you shared in the conversation we've had, you've had some really great sort of successes and kind of wins in this kind of sort of pricing and money regard.
Speaker:Some hugely positive change.
Speaker:I know it's really, uh, it's really, uh, kind of warming to hear that back, so thank you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, it's, there's something here around, um, being able to, to hear the story, a real life story of, of change and, and, and reflection just the, the, the struggle of it as well as the success around it.
Speaker:and I think what's, becoming more clear for me is this just having the, the courage to have these conversations and not be too, particularly at the beginning when we're selling something for the first time or changing prices for the first time, how, how can we do it without being in a kind of like a all or nothing state?
Speaker:It has to work.
Speaker:If it doesn't work, then I fail.
Speaker:And how much pressure and whether there's something, well, how we can approach these conversations with curiosity and what does that take?
Speaker:Because, uh, it feels like if, if we're not approaching it with curiosity, then we're gonna cut off a lot of information and, and potential to, to create more value, uh, with less effort, and maybe receive even more money.
Speaker:Thank you, Beccie.
Speaker:Thank you everyone for listening live.
Speaker:And for those of you listening to the recording, hopefully this isn't 90 minutes.
