Episode 59
Personal brand and pricing
What’s the value of a personal brand? When building your reputation, what would this reputation do for you? What financial value does it have? What’s it worth to get on the radar of the people that you’d love to collaborate with? How much time and effort should you invest in building your personal brand?
You could write a book to build a personal brand, and so what are the costs of writing it? What are the benefits in terms of royalties? What are the benefits in terms of it being a marketing vehicle for your company?
What’s the value of the work of someone helping you build a personal brand? What is the relative value of your work compared to a 5 page website, a tweet or an illustration?
On this episode, Carlos speaks with Anne Miltenburg, founder of Brand the Change, about her own experiences of pricing a brand.
Links
Transcript
It's lunchtime?
Carlos:Yeah, it should be lunchtime, but I didn't, I totally forgot to have lunch, so I'm just having some toast with Marmite.
Carlos:Are you?
Anne:Oh my God,
Carlos:This week I have the honor of being joined by Anne Miltenberg.
Carlos:Uh, founder of Brand the Change, author of the book Brand the Change, really interested in branding the change.
Carlos:And we're gonna be,
Anne:I laid it on a little thick, didn't I?
Anne:Yeah.
Carlos:No one's gonna forget those three words in a hurry.
Carlos:and yeah, today we're gonna be talking about personal brand and how well, for myself and Ben, and for those of you who, who regularly join us, are wondering where Ben is.
Carlos:Ben is somewhere abroad having a holiday.
Carlos:So I'm on my own, but that means I get Ann all to myself.
Carlos:But yes, this, this is Happy Pricing.
Carlos:Uh, and it was, uh, myself and Ben were, were just having a think about, you know, part of the idea of price is perception of value.
Carlos:And so related to that is around marketing.
Carlos:And related to that is branding and personal branding particularly, is a particular interest because many of the people in our community who follow us are either coaches, consultants, solopreneurs, people essentially, or small bus, you know, micro businesses where yeah, they don't necessarily, uh, well, their expertise, the, the way they present themselves is, is, is important.
Carlos:So I thought it would be interesting to have this conversation.
Carlos:And then, uh, Anne shared some wonderful stories about her own experience around the value of personal brand, whether that's selling in one or having one.
Carlos:And so I thought we'd explore that and see where it went.
Carlos:But before we kick off in earnest, Anne, why don't you give a little bit more background to you, uh, and specifically where are you based?
Carlos:How long have you been running Brand the Change and how did it start?
Anne:That's a good question.
Anne:So my name is Anne Miltenberg.
Anne:I was originally born in the Netherlands, and.
Anne:I specialized in graphic design, so I was trained as a designer at the Royal Academy of Fine Arts and was really interested in the kind of connection between design and social change.
Anne:Worked, uh, for my thesis.
Anne:Did research in Mali in Africa but was really disillusioned by the development sector.
Anne:Ended up in the commercial branding space.
Anne:Was really fascinated by that.
Anne:It felt like a super interesting space where you get to work really closely with entrepreneurs and figure out like how to, you know, what you, you have going on the inside, how can we bring that to the outside world in the best possible way?
Anne:But after 13 years in that space, I think my built in social engagement really started to just want to find its way out also in my work life.
Anne:And my last role was as a creative director at Into Brand.
Anne:And I felt like everything that we do here on the daily basis, like how could we leverage that for social and environmental change?
Anne:So in 2013, I quit my really good job and went on a one year trip around the world to talk to social entrepreneurs and change makers, to understand like, Hey, what's holding you back from building a stronger brand?
Anne:And I found out that very often it isn't.
Anne:Money.
Anne:Like at first I thought, well, it must be a budget thing.
Anne:It's also just the knowledge, so the awareness that brand can really help you to advance your cause.
Anne:And just the skills, it's a really diffuse, it's a really complex topic.
Anne:There's a lot of jargon and so I thought how, you know, can I help to cut through that noise and create a method that simpler?
Anne:So in 2014, I founded brand Change in Nairobi, in Kenya.
Anne:I started here because this is amazing hotspot for social innovation.
Anne:For those of you who aren't familiar with this, like Nairobi and Kenya in general there just like, there's so much going on here in terms of social change in tech.
Anne:So it's a perfect location.
Anne:So we've been running custom training, uh, programs for schools, incubators, accelerators, et cetera, and we created tools.
Anne:So one of the.
Anne:Things we did quite early on is we crowdfunded for a book that became Brand the Change, published worldwide.
Anne:And yeah, we're now, so we're now eight years old and last year, so we, we've been running community kind of informally since 2015 and we had all our alumni in there and last year we switched to only membership.
Anne:So that was a big step for us.
Anne:And yeah, along the way we met you guys at Happy, Startup School and that was a, a happy serendipity and it's been really fun to collaborate.
Carlos:So my first question, let's, let's get back to basics.
Carlos:What is a personal brand?
Anne:So in our classes, what we teach is that a brand is basically either a person or a place or a service, some organization that has achieved some level of prominence within the world of their audience.
Anne:So.
Anne:So I think we tend to think immediately about like Nike or about the Kardashians, but it's not really about fame at all.
Anne:You can have a really strong personal brand as a dentist.
Anne:You can have a really strong personal brand as a coach.
Anne:It's just about the prominence in the world of your audience and that can have any sort of scale.
Carlos:And when you say prominence in the world of your audience, what does that, what does the word prominence mean in this case?
Anne:It's about a level of like, people know you, so they've heard about you.
Anne:They're, they have some sort of emotional relationship with you.
Anne:They understand what you do.
Anne:They're intrigued by it.
Anne:They're willing to follow along with it, and hopefully at some point, you know, engage with it.
Anne:So either become an ambassador for it or to be a customer of it, of the product or service.
Anne:And I think that can look very different depending on what kind of, you know, professional role you take and if you're in a company or outside.
Carlos:Does that mean you can accidentally create personal brand or is it always intentional?
Anne:No, I think a lot of us actually, most of us accidentally create our personal brands, right?
Anne:So we are just going about life doing what we do, and we build a reputation by everything that we do.
Anne:And that can be, you know, that can be done with a lot of awareness and, and just totally unconsciously, because everything that you do sends a signal to the world.
Anne:So, unless people dunno you at all, you've not sent any signals.
Anne:I think most of us are actually in a situation where we've kind of just unaware has built up something, and could probably benefit from being much more strategic about that.
Carlos:Yeah, and that's a, it's interesting bit because what, what I've experienced particularly with a number of people in our community who, what I consider either quiet or humble people, strategically creating your personal brand might feel a bit uncomfortable.
Carlos:And so I was wondering if you could talk to that idea of strategically creating a personal brand.
Carlos:'Cause on one level, you know, at least for me, there's a bit of a, maybe a, I dunno, arrogance, I think of influencers and showing a side of yourself that might not be real or more polished than necessary.
Anne:Yeah, I think this slowly is really interesting.
Anne:Like we have so many assumptions, so many associations with the word branding and strategy.
Anne:And so, and very often, unfortunately, those are based on the worst examples of it, right?
Anne:So what I, when I say strategy, I just say like, it's, you know, I mean to say like, it's about having a plan that allows you to do you love too, in the best possible way, right?
Anne:So that doesn't mean, strategy doesn't mean commercial, it doesn't mean loud.
Anne:It just means a smart plan.
Anne:And I think the fact that you're smart about it means that you don't have to be loud, right?
Anne:Because you can do, if you can do it in a very smart way, very fit way.
Anne:I think you actually don't have to resort to being a Kardashian, you don't have to resort to like glorification of the person, because you can actually be much, uh, more targeted.
Anne:So I always feel like when you're, when you're a modest person and when you're a person of content, this whole concept of personal brand is, it just turns you off immediately, right?
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:And so, I think that's totally fine.
Anne:I mean, that's, as a matter of fact, that's probably a sign of, you know, great character that you're not, you know, interested in tooting your own horn all day.
Anne:But I think those definitions that you hold and those assumptions that you are making could potentially be holding you back from actually getting some of the things that you want out of life, right?
Carlos:Hmm.
Anne:And I think that that's very good to kind of sit with that discomfort of like, okay, yeah.
Anne:I have these assumptions about what it could be, but can I let those go for a second and just think about like, Hey, what would it mean for my business, whatever that business may be, if I walked in the door and people already knew me and already appreciated what I was doing?
Anne:And that if you're an introvert, that certainly makes the first kind of conversation a lot easier, right?
Anne:And I think once you, so when you can, can let go of those, you know, if I may call them, you know, disrespectfully hangups.
Anne:Like, if you can go, let go of that and really think about like, Hey, what is the way that I could have the people that I want to kind of engage with, um, how could I already be presence in their life?
Anne:Is a much pleasanter way of thinking about this.
Anne:And I think a much, you know, less intimidating way.
Carlos:That's really helpful because, uh, one view that I've had about personal branding is like, it's all about me.
Carlos:And so it's all about trying to tell everything about me, but what I'm hearing or how I'm interpreting what you're saying, there's an element of sharing and this is my words, please correct me or elaborate more further, like, sharing stuff about me that helps the people who I want to help or connects or is relevant to the people who I want to connect with.
Anne:Well, when we think of personal branding has to be all about me.
Anne:I think also that's, that's a bit of a dysfunctional belief because no one's interested in someone who's only interested in themselves.
Anne:And so I know some people who might conventionally be thought of as very strong personal brands, but they're personal brands I hate because, you know, they're not interested in me, they're just interested in a platform for themselves.
Anne:And I think it's totally fine to build, for instance, a personal brand around cheerleading the people that you work with.
Anne:I know people who are really good at just, you know, cheerleading others.
Anne:And through that cheerleading really show like the value that they add through the work that they do, or, you know, the fact that they're really good people leader or the fact that they're very focused on impact or effect.
Anne:So I don't like, don't let the a-holes hold you back from, you know, finding your own examples.
Anne:And I think that is also something really good as an exercise.
Anne:We're just about to start this 21 day personal brand challenge.
Anne:And one of the things we did is just like, as a, like, as a first exercise, like think about who you love as a person in a profession, who doesn't have like, maybe a conventional personal brand, but who you, who you've gotten to know, and who services you, you know, admire, and and what can you learn from the way that that person has built it?
Anne:Because I think if we're always looking at the examples that we don't wanna follow, we're basically building our knowledge of this topic on the wrong examples.
Anne:And if we can learn from the people that we do love and admire, then I think that that is much more helpful.
Anne:So surround yourself by examples that actually get you fired up to do it your own way rather than, you know, having a heart attack every time you see that person with a selfie.
Anne:I actually, yeah, this week I, I also I think we spoke about this last year, Carlos, we had a session on like icky, you know, how can you build a personal brand, the.
Anne:Like, there's just so much icky stuff out there.
Anne:But again, like if, if that's the only thing we're looking at, we're building a lot of garbage in our brain.
Anne:Like you need to freshen it up with good, wholesome, inspirational examples.
Carlos:The, the unwholesome examples of personal brand is now given me a whole new meaning to the word icky guy.
Carlos:For those of you who don't follow very much.
Carlos:So that's probably.
Anne:At the core of your ickiness, where all your ickiness, your arrogance, your blindness, your egocentricity, your toxic, whatever, yeah.
Carlos:So yeah, maybe on that then, just to, for those people who, who are interested in, who, who have these hangups in inverted commas, uh, about personal branding and, and I would find it helpful to reframe that, do you have an example for yourself of an organization, a person, actually, maybe a person, I dunno, just
Carlos:an example for yourself about a personal, someone with a personal brand that you admire and, and maybe what is it about them that, that you, you're attracted to?
Anne:Yeah, so, I think one of my favorites is Dr.
Anne:Aana Johnson.
Anne:She's a a marine, uh, biologist and she's a policy advisor.
Anne:And I think what's really impressive is how she managed to build a following and actually used kind of her personal presence to really drive climate action in the US and put pressure on government and organize, I think a, like a movement of uh, of, of climate action and support for science, um, and also make that more diverse.
Anne:And I think she's a really good example to, she has debt, like she's a scientist.
Anne:She's not gonna be like, oh, you know, I'm laying here on the towel with my.
Anne:But that doesn't mean that she only, like, it's, it can also be fun, right?
Anne:So, I think that is a really good example.
Anne:I I mean there's authors that I really love, so I think GMA Manzi a has a really strong brand, is an author and a feminist I forget her last name.
Anne:I think it's Zaina, uh, UCCI.
Anne:I'm gonna have to look that one up.
Anne:But she is a a data scientist and she has a really good substack newsletter and she's a teacher.
Anne:And yeah, these are all people of substance, but I follow them and I think what's really, what's really key, I think to why I think they're so good is that they have the kind of, you know, they have the story and the content and the deck, but they're always also really clear on like, what do I want to be recognized for?
Anne:Like, what's the impact that I want to achieve and how am I going to get people involved with this?
Anne:And being a little unapologetic about you know, what they're, how they're trying to do that in some cases, but with a lot of integrity and trying stuff out.
Carlos:So there's something around here I'm hearing about a need for some clarity, personal clarity about what it is you really wanna do and, and this, with that.
Carlos:I like the word that you use unapologetic.
Carlos:There's not a shame for what you believe really standing behind your actions and and your values.
Anne:Yeah, and I think this is also where a lot of the pricing conversation comes in, right?
Anne:So if I, maybe what we can talk about, like what is a strong personal brand and a weak personal brand?
Anne:Because I think, with the strong personal brand, it's clear what you do.
Anne:People understand the value you deliver, they understand if it's for them or not.
Anne:And they probably, you know, hopefully they prefer you over others with the same service, you know, to a point of irrationality, right?
Anne:Like, I'll go for that person, even though I know there's six others, but I just only wanna get.
Anne:The proposal from them.
Anne:And I think with a weak personal brand, what you see is like, well, people don't know you.
Anne:And you know, that's tough because to be unknown is a little bit to be unloved in this world sometimes it's not unloved, I don't like hated or negative feeling.
Anne:It's just a neutral, like it's an absence of love, right?
Anne:People tend to value things that they've already heard about.
Anne:And this is just kind of one of those unfortunate natural facts.
Anne:If people dunno what you do or only in very vague terms, if people dunno how it would deliver value or if people dunno that they could actually, like they are a customer, they could be purchasing this service or this product.
Anne:And I think what happens in those cases, I don't know if you ever have this, but I know a couple of people who I greatly admire but I'm not entirely sure what I would recommend them for.
Anne:And so here is a tremendous loss because they look really smart.
Anne:I kind of understand what they're doing in this area, but like if someone would say on LinkedIn like, Hey, I'm looking for a consultant in x, y z, I wouldn't be able to say like, oh yeah, that's my girl, that's my guy.
Anne:If someone would come to me and say like, Hey, can you recommend them for this work?
Anne:I'd be like, yeah, I'm not entirely sure actually.
Anne:So I think that's where that pricing aspect comes in of like, well, if the clarity of what you do and like the relationships that you've established aren't there, it becomes much harder, first of all to get into like, to get people into your funnel and second of all to deal.
Anne:So if you do have that stronger brand, I think that process just becomes a little easier.
Anne:And having said that, of course, you know, that's a time investment to get there, right?
Anne:So it's not just like, switch on and it works.
Carlos:One of the things Ben talks about, we talk about the course, is being polarizing.
Carlos:And I associate, I thought about that when you talk about personal brand in terms of people who just, they will choose you rather than all these other people just because they want to choose you.
Carlos:But in the same way, there are people who won't choose you for maybe the same reasons and they'll go elsewhere because not about you can't do the job, but for whatever reason, what you stand for does not resonate.
Anne:But that's like a foundational principle of branding, right?
Anne:Is positioning yourself really well and you can't be everything to everyone.
Anne:And I think the scary part of that is you, it's really hard, especially in personal services to figure out how big a market is.
Anne:So for instance, when in 2014 when I said to people like, yeah, I'm starting, you know, an educational company for, you know, trained people in branding specifically for social enterprise, they were like, like, there's three people that are gonna go to that.
Anne:And I was like, well, let's see.
Anne:But I couldn't really say like, well, I've done my market research and globally there's, of course I've done, like, I've done a year of travel past all these incubators and accelerators, so I had some idea of like, yeah, there's, there's plenty of meat on the bone here.
Anne:Um, but it is very scary.
Anne:And people say like, you know, you can't survive off that, and that, that is possible.
Anne:But I Think the, the bigger risk for sure is that people actually don't end up choosing you because you're not specialized and you're not able to like really firmly address the issues that they have.
Anne:So in my experience, the niching down is important, especially if you're an English speaker in an online profession, you know, the world is like competing with you, right?
Anne:So it's very different in that case than if you're in the, you're in Luxembourg or you're in let's say Kenya and you're working in a local language market.
Anne:But and then of course, local language depends on how many, right?
Anne:If you're in India, it's like, yeah.
Anne:Local language, not so small.
Anne:But yeah, I think, I think definitely I would agree with you and Ben, yeah.
Carlos:Then there's this thing about how it affects pricing and so, oh, I'd like to get into a little bit more with some, a couple of your stories, but there's confidence.
Carlos:I think what I think what I'm trying to get to is like, it doesn't necessarily dictate the number all the time, but it maybe helps this personal brand, this trust, this feeling of connectedness to someone might make it easier for someone to accept the number that you propose.
Carlos:And it could be they, the only person they wanna work with is you.
Carlos:And also there's a value in terms of not wasting my time with trying to hunt around.
Carlos:It's like, I know this person.
Carlos:I don't have time to waste.
Carlos:What's the price?
Carlos:Fine, I'll pay.
Carlos:It doesn't matter.
Carlos:This isn't like, there's no kind of calculation going on as to how the ROI, it's just like, I need this person, I need this person now I'm just gonna pay it.
Carlos:And I just wanted to share that as a way of just offering a, a perspective that some people pay you a certain amount of money for reasons that you may not even realize or you might not have planned.
Carlos:That's one thing.
Carlos:And then the other thing I think we're gonna go into, well I thought we might go into now is this, you know, you had a couple of stories around primarily first your own experience or value of a personal brand, and then the story around helping someone build their own, and then this question of your own value given what other people were charging or who were supporting this work.
Carlos:So, and then maybe start off with the story of your own personal brand and, and what it, the value of it.
Carlos:I think that's what we were talking about before, if you remember that story.
Anne:Yeah.
Anne:So I think there's very much this editing process, right?
Anne:So what we talked about just now, about like focusing.
Anne:For me, that was very much the case.
Anne:So, I was creative director at Interbrand.
Anne:I was in the Dutch Design Awards jury for four years, and I was a scout for them.
Anne:I was in the board of the Dutch Designs Association.
Anne:I was a writer, I was teaching at Design Academy.
Anne:I was creating workshop, like I was doing a thousand things.
Anne:This was really hard on me and it was also quite difficult for people to know, like, okay, well she does this brand stuff and then she does this other stuff and she's writing about culture and society and design and social engagement, and it was quite fuzzy.
Anne:And so actually forced myself when I, when I quit my role.
Anne:I just completely focused on this one question of like, how can I leverage brand for social change?
Anne:And one of the things that I quickly realized, like, I need to be positioned as the expert in this space, right?
Anne:In order to get my foot in the door.
Anne:So, we used our brand thinking canvas to just think through like, okay, well if I wanna be recognized for that, what do I need to do?
Anne:And so it's not just about telling people you're the expert, it's about showing them as well, right?
Anne:So we created these work workshop formats, made lots of pilots.
Anne:We gathered testimonials.
Anne:I wrote articles for, uh, Stanford Social Innovation Review, uh, which is, you know, a, a big deal in kind of social impact land.
Anne:I made sure that the workshops where we did those pilots, we did them at kind of reputable organizations like Impact Hub and Amani Institute.
Anne:And so we kind of, you know, slowly built that, that ecosystem.
Anne:And I just made sure that no one else had to deal with any of the other stuff that I was doing in any other way.
Anne:And every signal that was being sent was about like, Hey, if you're looking for someone at the intersection of brand and social change, you need to talk to Anne.
Anne:And it wasn't at all about cosmetics, because I was also living it, and so the stuff that I was doing was matching what I was saying.
Anne:But of course I, yeah, you have to like being recognized as the expert and being the expert, like those two things have to come together over time.
Anne:Right.
Anne:But I think one of the things that's important there to keep in mind is that it's like your reputation is like an oil tanker.
Anne:And you have to hang on to that that wheel really long time before the boat starts to actually make the turn.
Anne:So I think whenever you're thinking about your personal brand, like what you need to think about is a three to five year horizon of like, where do I wanna go?
Anne:Because everything that I'm investing today is going to lead to people recognizing this over time.
Anne:So every time people have an interaction with you, it's gonna build some recognition in their head.
Anne:It's not gonna be like, oh, tomorrow I get it because you sent me a newsletter.
Anne:It's like, no, it is gonna take 20 newsletters, maybe it's gonna take, you know, 40 LinkedIn posts.
Anne:It is gonna take three conversations.
Anne:So having a TED talk on the topic, having a book on the topic, like all those things helps and that's a, I mean, I cannot even express how many hours of investment that is, right?
Anne:Um, And the funny thing is, people would tell me, like, yeah, you know, it's a pretty bad investment too, because you could, like financially, if you would've invested at all to be, you know, doing brand consultancy for big companies like that would be fab.
Anne:But you're working in the impact space, like it's not gonna result in super high pricing.
Anne:But it's the price that I want.
Anne:It's the price that makes me happy, right?
Anne:So.
Anne:I think understanding that this is kind of like the branding part, process, you can kind of make it part of your personal journey because it can be super helpful, I think from like, it's almost like an existential thing to know how to introduce yourself in a minute.
Anne:It's almost like, you know, if you cannot solve this, this issue, like I see how much it hurts people and it's really frustrating, right?
Anne:And it's really nice if you're able to have this compass and this clarity, like, this is where I wanna go and thing that I'm doing and saying is building towards that recognition.
Anne:And I wish that for everyone, right?
Anne:And it's not like this is a, now I've done it and now forever this is the thing, like every couple of years you're probably gonna change your, you know, the points on the horizon a little bit.
Anne:But I think that for me definitely was the, a really important part of the process is first making those really difficult choices and then sticking to them,
Carlos:I love this compass, these compass points, like this sense of direction.
Carlos:And I then go back to being unapologetic.
Carlos:With the idea of the oil or using the oil tanker analogies, like it's not gonna be knocked off course very easily.
Carlos:You know, there's very direction, there's a momentum behind it, I should say.
Carlos:And I think Annie was talking about keeping, showing up, building a relationship brick by brick, doing, you know, acting in coherence.
Carlos:And now over time, the value, as I understand it from you, isn't necessarily about charging higher prices.
Carlos:It's about when you meet the people who wanna work with you, it's an effortless relationship.
Carlos:It just, you know, you don't need to sell yourself so hard anymore.
Carlos:It becomes, I know you, you do that work, I want to work with you.
Carlos:And then it's your choice as to whether they can afford you or they work with you.
Anne:Yeah.
Anne:Well, and I think what, what's interesting, so that comes, so that is this very helpful mechanism, right?
Anne:This, and, and there's times that it works and it, there's also times that it can work against you.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:So maybe I'll give you an example where it really worked for me.
Anne:So I moved to the countryside in Kenya during Covid.
Anne:I thought, this is the end of my career, ' cause I need to be in Nairobi where I can network and I can't be moving to like, you know, peace, quiet, no one around.
Anne:And our neighbors were having uh, like a brunch thing and they invited a couple of people and they invited my husband because he's an interesting guy.
Anne:And I came along as the wife.
Anne:And usually no one ever, the people are like, oh, you're the wife, and they kind of, and they move on to the other, uh, people who they already know to be interesting at the table.
Anne:And one of the guys there says, you know, surprises me by asking like, oh, Anne, what do you do?
Anne:And I said, well, you know, I'm a, I'm a brand developer and specialize in, in building brands for social change.
Anne:And he is like, what's your last name?
Anne:And I said, my last name's Miltenberg.
Anne:And he just, and like he was struck by that.
Anne:And I was like, very uncomfortable about that because like, I'm obviously like a tiny, tiny, tiny little person.
Anne:But it was a very interesting moment.
Anne:And then it made it obviously much easier then to have conversations with him.
Anne:But I did have to actually make it clear that I was available for work and for collaboration.
Anne:So it wasn't like you have a book, or I know you and therefore I will hire you.
Anne:No, because I think the last, actually, what can also happen is people are like, oh, she's very busy.
Anne:She's doing well, she's got a book, she's too academic.
Anne:Is she's still practicing?
Anne:Is she too expensive?
Anne:So there's like, it's not just like an automatic thing, right?
Anne:You still need to be able to kind of make the sale.
Anne:And so I think brand plus marketing plus sales is still kind of, it doesn't just land in your, in your lap.
Anne:And I also wanted to make sure that everyone understands that you could think about, for instance, you could position yourself as very affordable, for instance.
Anne:You could, you could, like, you could say, I'm the logo wall, right?
Anne:Like, I'm the logo king on the corner.
Anne:I make logos cheap, and I do lots of them.
Anne:Like it's a really strong personal brand.
Anne:And it's a personal brand based, based on the positioning of a low price.
Anne:But the idea then is of course is that so many people come to you to do it cheap, that you end up having much more revenue.
Anne:So it just depends.
Anne:Like it's not just about higher prices, it's about the happy price and it's hopefully about the increase in revenue, right?
Anne:Rather than can I ask 200 bucks instead of 150 an hour?
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:There's so much there around how much money you want and also how you want to make that money, which is very much around.
Carlos:Some stuff that we talk about the community, happy money in terms of it isn't, sometimes you can work, make a lot of money, but just by working really hard and being de-energized by it, uh, and there's opportunities or the question is there are opportunities to make enough money but it not feel like work.
Carlos:And I think for me, hearing about personal brand, is it aligns with that or it helps with that because the people that you, people, the right people will gravitate to you if, like you said, you intentionally work on your personal brand so that it connects with the people that you want to connect with.
Anne:Yeah.
Anne:And, and the group of people that you want to connect with doesn't need to be the world.
Anne:And I think this is also a kind of misperception that social media has created is that somehow you have to be out there for the world to see.
Anne:Whereas actually, if you're thinking about your happy price and you're thinking about what do I need to make a year in order to be happy, how many people are we really talking about?
Anne:And this is again, where the smart question comes back in, right?
Anne:So if you're saying like, well, you know, I have a number in my mind of what I need to make a year, and in order to do that I need to have five or 50 customers, then I think the process of figuring out how am I going to encounter those people becomes much more intentional because, you know, you don't need to be opening an Instagram account and boosting it to a million people.
Anne:Like, you, maybe you need 50, maybe you need a really good word of mouth system.
Anne:I know that the Better Boulder Braver, uh, community has a lot of amazing resources on that.
Anne:It's, you know, is it gonna be, you know, introductions?
Anne:Is it gonna be testimonials?
Anne:Is it gonna be, you know, newsletters?
Anne:Is it just gonna be you at in-person events?
Anne:Can you organize something?
Anne:So one of the things we did with Brand the Change is we organized meetups and we just, you know, spread the word about like, Hey, if you're interested in brands and social change, like coming out with us in Amsterdam or Nairobi or Lisbon on like once of every Friday.
Anne:And that way, you know, we met a lot of fun people.
Anne:You don't even have to organize it.
Anne:You just show up for one, right?
Anne:Let someone else do the hard work
Anne:. Um, so I think there's, there, there's all these ways that you can find.
Anne:The, the right size audience also at a, at a price you can afford.
Anne:Right?
Anne:Because I think one of the things that we see is that kind of marketing and especially social media, they become busy work.
Anne:It's something you do because it's kind of expected or it's something you dread because it's, you know, expected.
Anne:And it's like, okay, but is it actually gonna get you what you need?
Anne:Time that you spent is also money lost, right?
Anne:So I think without that strategy of like, this is what I want to be recognized for, if you don't really have that, I think you end up losing a lot of time and therefore, you know, either time you could spend on doing on something else that's great fun.
Anne:Or making some money and hopefully doing both, of course.
Carlos:Well, the thing below that, that resonated and is connected with a lot of our work at the moment, the Happy Startup, School and Vision 2020 re in particular, what do you need?
Carlos:What is it you need, not only in terms of money, but also in terms of the way you get energy, the way you wanna work, who you wanna work with?
Carlos:And having that clarity as part of the design brief for the business, not purely, numbers and market strategies or, or market surveys and, and research.
Carlos:And so the other story I wanted to share with everyone was the story of you working to help someone else build their personal brand and trying to value that piece of work.
Carlos:And I thought that was a really useful story to share, because I think it spoke to your own journey of understanding, yeah, your confidence around pricing.
Anne:Yeah, so what's interesting is that we, so we mostly work in training and coaching situations at Brand the Change, but I'm also a freelance brand director, and usually that's for, let's say, small medium sized businesses in the tech for good space.
Anne:So at the moment, for instance, I'm a brand director for a, uh, social network in Kenya for, uh, young professionals.
Anne:But like in some cases, like people approach you and say like, Hey, that stuff you do for organizations, can you do that for me as well?
Anne:And I think what I learned from that process is the amount of time that goes into helping an individual, like figure out where they wanna go, what they want to be known for, how they're gonna get there, and actually build that stuff.
Anne:To me, it was almost one-on-one, the same as a social network with 140,000 members.
Anne:So the amount of research into like, okay, you know, what do you wanna do?
Anne:Like, it's almost like therapy that you need to go through with someone, right?
Anne:So the amount of strategic workshops that we did together, for instance, was actually more than what I would do for, uh, my other customers.
Anne:And I think that was because when it's one person, if you have that total clarity, like okay, you know, pieces will fall into place and you have someone to bet.
Anne:But if you're in a position where you have still have a lot of choices and considerations and for your reason that's a really, really tough process.
Anne:And I you know, and then you.
Anne:Ultimately look at, okay, so how much, you know, time and, and what is the fee for this?
Anne:And that's quite intense, right?
Anne:It's quite intense.
Anne:And I realized from that process like, oh yeah, you know, I really enjoyed doing this work, but I find like, because I'm not a therapist, and I always tell everyone like, yeah, you know, I can do therapy for companies, but I don't wanna do therapy for people because I feel like that's a little too dangerous.
Anne:Like, I should not, I'm not qualified for this.
Anne:And yeah, it was, it was just, it was for me really, an an eyeopener that it can, you know, that it can be so, such an involved process for individuals.
Anne:And I think also for those people who are interested in, you know, or already building personal brands for other people professionally, I think it's, you know, I really admire people who do that because I think what also often happens is that you work with people who have very little experience in that space, um, whereas, you know, when I come in as a brand director, I
Anne:usually work with a CEO or a founder who doesn't have necessarily much experience in branding, but will be quite savvy in certain areas that allows us to make, I guess, faster decisions or,
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:So, yeah, it's, it's not an easy process.
Anne:And so the question really is like, well, is it, you know, what, what should I invest in my personal brand?
Anne:Then I, I think there's basically two levels to think about it, which is the.
Anne:Level of like making the plan.
Anne:So that's your time investment, right?
Anne:I would heavily, heavily invest in that with yourself.
Anne:And if, and very often you can't do that by yourself because you need a mirror.
Anne:So having some sort of coach or partner to do that with, or peer coach, I think, or program like, uh, Vision 2020.
Anne:So, so having that mirror I think is really important.
Anne:And just being able to put it in front of people and say like, Hey, when you see this, what do you think?
Anne:What do you feel?
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:What do you hear?
Anne:So that you get some sort of feedback loop on whether it's clear testing it with potential, you know, audiences and not with your mom, um, or with your friends because they will lie too.
Anne:Um, And then there's a question of like assets.
Anne:So, you know, do you need a couple of good assets in place so that could, you know, be a website or a headshot or, you know, some help with copywriting or, you know, however far you wanna take it.
Anne:And that's, that's like I, I guess the financial investment, right?
Anne:In the stuff.
Anne:And I think that really depends on your network and you know, who you know or who you want to invite into the process.
Anne:And there's so many resources for that these days that make it, you know, pretty affordable.
Anne:And then you can just, you can go as far as you like.
Anne:So I've worked for people, you know, creating custom illustrations with like really high-end illustrators.
Anne:And that's a, you know, that's a thing, like every time a post goes out, you need to have, you know, a $500 illustration.
Anne:Like that's a choice you make, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Anne:Right?
Anne:There's lots of um, cheaper resources.
Anne:So I think I think there's a really big range, but I think don't think of it too much as like, well this is, you know, my personal brand is these assets.
Anne:Like when I have to invest in personal brand, I have to invest in like a website and a headshot.
Anne:But think about it more as like first the plan.
Anne:And based on that plan, what could you do without the assets?
Anne:Like if you're really just, if you have a super small budget to start off with, what can you do without the assets?
Anne:It's actually really smart.
Anne:So that's a word of mouth, that's a testimonial.
Anne:That's the introduction, that's the event.
Anne:And then build from there.
Carlos:So there's a lot of, you know, ways of tackling this, not getting wedded to the things, but there's something around the clarity.
Carlos:The story I rem you know, I heard you tell as well, the way it came across to me is that when you were working with this person who wanted a personal brand, you know, you kind of made a calculation or an estimate of about the time that you would spend with them, and then you put together a proposal based on some kind of rate.
Carlos:And then what I remember you saying, you needed to work more than the estimate.
Carlos:And not only that is when you are commissioning websites or tweets or things like that, the rates that these people would charge just seemed uncomfortably higher compared to you.
Carlos:And so there's this aspect of.
Carlos:I was just thinking like, oh my God, if I'm gonna work with hand to do my personal brand, it's kind of how therapy do I need?
Carlos:But this whole thing around, I think the, the story, the, the message I was trying, I was looking at as well is this, we can base what we charge based on, uh our time, but then it all depends on the person, you know, how much, whether that's a good value or not all depends on how much they perceive having this personal brand is gonna improve their business.
Carlos:And so, on one hand, if this person, through a personal brand, sees the potential to make, I'm just gonna say millions, not having a personal brand means she could lose that money.
Carlos:And so there's something around, it doesn't matter how many hours there it is, if 10% of what you think you're gonna get is worth getting that money, then that's a hundred thousand pounds worth of, thousand dollars, whatever it is of value in terms of work.
Carlos:So not that I'm saying that people can just charge that much money, but then there's something here around not just your time, but also the story that this person is telling themselves around what will I achieve by having a personal brand?
Carlos:And I'm now, you know, given all this conversation, it's kind of hard to necessarily pinpoint it, because like you said, this is a longer term event.
Carlos:But there is something around telling the story of where that could go for someone, for them to understand, ah, if I get this right now.
Carlos:I don't have, you know, the, I just can just focus on this, doing this, doing these simple things, not getting spread too thin.
Carlos:All the things that, what is the cost of not doing it?
Carlos:Being overwhelmed and never being mentioned by anyone, no one really understanding who I am and what how to refer me.
Carlos:Not being able to go to the next door neighbors and have someone say, oh, I know you.
Carlos:To actually having a conversation with someone and without too much effort getting a client because they totally understand who you are, what you stand for, because of this deeper work that you've been able to go through or you've been facilitated through.
Anne:Yeah, so I'm a huge proponent of value-based pricing, but I think when it comes to branding, I think there's two big challenges.
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:So I think the first thing is that I rarely meet someone who thinks about it in the strategic way that you do.
Anne:So I rarely meet someone who's like, well, what would it mean for me if I had a strong personal brand?
Anne:So that's a question that I would immediately ask, right?
Anne:Like, not just person, but like, Hey, what would it mean for you as a tech company, as a environmental movement if people already knew?
Anne:So it's part of, definitely part of the conversation, but people tend to undervalue that
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:Tremendously.
Anne:So they're unable to extricate like the value of the brand from their everyday work.
Anne:And that's, to be honest, that's pretty hard, like traditionally, right?
Anne:Like how much is Coca-Cola the brand worth, and how much is the formula to the drink worth?
Anne:Right?
Anne:So that's already, that's the hard thing.
Anne:And then the second.
Anne:If I'm saying that the value of this, you know, everyone knowing you when you walk in the door is what you're buying with me through this process, that means that I'm committing to an open-ended deliverable.
Anne:And so I think you still need to tie that down in very specific deliverables because people will eat you up, right?
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:And when it's very personal, if I can't make a choice, now all of a sudden it's on me to help them make a choice about their direction of their career, right?
Carlos:Mm-Hmm.
Anne:And if I haven't been able to get them to a place of like, Hey, now people know what you wanna do, then that's a failure on my part.
Anne:So I'd love to know like what you and Ben would actually advise me to do in such a situation.
Anne:Because I think what you then do is you definitely revert back into like, okay, but we're gonna go for like very clear deliverables.
Anne:And in this case, what I deliver is a process.
Anne:So I can't guarantee you that this is the end result, but I can guarantee you a process of quality in which we're gonna figure this out together.
Anne:But it's very possible depending on, you know, the kind of person you're working with, that it goes much quicker, a much slower than you expected.
Anne:I think that, for me has stood in the way of pricing better, probably with a personal brand as well as other situations because of this like immense, like this misunderstanding of what brand is, misunderstanding of what deliver deliverables are, and just, you know, for people who are just not familiar in this space, just a misunderstanding of how much effort goes into this work.
Carlos:So for me, that talks to really about the awareness of the customer, and you'll be familiar, I assume with Better Bolder Braver journey of consciousness of a customer.
Carlos:And so if you are selling to someone who isn't aware of the value of a personal brand, it will be hard.
Carlos:Totally.
Carlos:And so there is a marketing aspect to this, and I think this is what you do with the community, and this is what you do by talking on places like this.
Carlos:So education.
Carlos:People understanding for themselves within their own industries or their own work, starting to get to, and this is, you know, I'm a potential customer now because I'm now at a stage where, or I, I have products, I have services that I know work they deliver they deliver on what they do.
Carlos:There is still this kind of, uh, ambiguity, you know, you said to Vision 2020, vision, what is it?
Carlos:In Happy Startup School, Alptitude, some, you know, there's lots of like, oh, clarity that could be used there.
Carlos:I know how much we earn through that.
Carlos:And I can see where we could potentially earn more if we had more people who were aware or understood or could refer us more clearly.
Carlos:And so there's starting a, I'm starting to understand, ah, that's where some proper brand work would work.
Carlos:Talk to me five years ago, wouldn't have touched you with a barge pole.
Carlos:Talk to me.
Carlos:Now.
Carlos:It's like a, I'm understanding through this conversation why branding can help me have focus.
Carlos:I'm understanding that it's a longer term game, but I'm also understanding when it does work, the potential revenue that I could create, or more revenue I could create, seems like a possibility.
Carlos:It's not guaranteed.
Carlos:I know that's not guaranteed, but if my willingness,, my spending capacity, my appetite for risk, let's put it that way, my willingness to bet on something.
Carlos:Is within my capacity to spend, then it isn't a problem.
Carlos:And, and the question that we always, or the thing that we try to get people on the cost to do is like understanding people's capacity to spend.
Anne:Mm.
Carlos:Talk about the money as soon as possible.
Carlos:And that isn't necessarily how much are you gonna spend, it's more about, so how much revenue do you make?
Carlos:How much do you spend on coaching?
Carlos:How do you wanna spend in marketing?
Carlos:You know, how much, how much are you spending at the moment?
Carlos:Because if what they spend is this and you are pricing there, then you are missing an opportunity to get more value for yourself, but also to be more invested because you know exactly what their capacity is.
Carlos:And what I heard there as well is confidence.
Carlos:I think, and that's the other thing I've learned through doing this work and talking, working with Ben, a lot of it is about how we turn up in, in those conversations and the confidence that we have to back the price that we put together.
Carlos:And there's confidence because you've worked with people many times.
Carlos:Uh, I think there's also confidence in this intention to get them to a certain place.
Carlos:And so, yeah I hear you in terms of there's, there's the theory and there's the practice.
Carlos:Uh, and part of that aspect of the practice is knowing these customers well, you know, getting to a place where when someone arrives at your door, you know their problem, you know what they need, you know where you're gonna get them.
Carlos:You got a real clarity as that I can do this.
Carlos:And then the, the thing there is like, maybe you can do it in an hour, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to charge an hour's worth of your time.
Anne:My best session with someone was 45 minutes.
Carlos:Boom.
Anne:Um, Because she walked in and basically she just needed external approval.
Anne:She just needed to hear from someone that it was okay to position herself in a particular way.
Anne:And yeah, I think, I think that's really um, I, I think that was a, you know, you, you encounter so many different you know, a bandwidth of so many different challenges.
Anne:And one of the things, I'm not sure if this directly related to it, but I think if you have a, like an enthusiasm, like a passion for your work, and someone comes to you and someone's like, Hey, you can help me, you're the only person that can help me, you feel like, oh my gosh, let me jump in even though this is not, you
Anne:know, my a hundred percent expertise, but you know, I do this all the, you know, so I think that's also when you let go of some of those lessons learned, right?
Anne:And, and you might make those mistakes again.
Anne:And I think in a way, there's nothing wrong with that because you're basically just reaffirming.
Anne:But I think like setting those boundaries in your, in your sales and new business process of like, it's not just about like, it's a two-way street, right?
Anne:Like what are the boundaries?
Anne:What do you say yes to?
Anne:And that comes back to that positioning story.
Anne:And if you're still interested in doing other things, I think it's a really good thing to explore.
Anne:Like, you know, I don't wanna be Mis Brand for Social Change probably for the next 90 years, maybe the next 10?
Anne:But, you know, we all secretly dream about, well, I don't know, I don't have any secret dreams, but I know people who dream about like starting a flower or something completely different.
Anne:And I think it's nice to explore that, but then like, also know that you have to kind of adjust your, your brand and your kind of, uh, marketing and sales and pricing journey for that.
Anne:Because you're gonna come in with it with all these assumptions of like, okay, I know how this is done.
Anne:And you probably, yeah, probably have to realign on that little bit more.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:And I think what you're speaking there, or how it learns from me, which is a broader topic, is this is not a linear process.
Carlos:You do, you don't do brand and marketing, then selling, then pricing, and then you're done.
Carlos:It's like you probably go back again because you realize actually these aren't the customers you wanna work with, or this isn't the way you wanna work, or you are not, you are more clear now about who you are and what you stand for.
Carlos:Some things have changed in life, so there's this always this ongoing practice of telling your story, telling the story of your customers, understanding what you really want, understanding what you need, that never ends.
Anne:Yeah.
Anne:Well, and I think also end of that journey actually having people reflect back, and I know that Frances has a tip on doing that with, with video testimonials but having people reflect back on the process and actually explain to other people.
Anne:What was the value in that process, I think is so helpful, because that's also the mirror and that's the tuning that happens, right?
Anne:So you can have an idea in your head of like, this is what I want to be recognized for.
Anne:But then all while you're tuning that language and may getting closer and closer to, you know, what really matters for your potential customers, and I think hearing the words of someone else describing what you do, I think is very often super powerful.
Anne:And having those other people talk about you is probably, you know, one of the biggest assets of your work.
Anne:And so if you're, you know, if you're in a situation where you, if you're not putting anything out there and you're not getting that feedback, having a community like I think Happy Startup School is really, really important
Carlos:Well, all power to community, and at least a community done well.
Carlos:Similarly with your community as well, is that having that space where you have the guidance, but also the.
Carlos:The people around you to reflect on your journey.
Carlos:Is there, before we leave anything, any closing thoughts, uh, and anything else that you'd like to share with listeners that you'd like to point them to?
Anne:Well, so we have.
Anne:We often talk about purpose as being super important and I am a huge believer in that.
Anne:But I would definitely advise me thinking of your personal brand, don't forget the what.
Anne:And I think one of the things I've worked with over 3000 people in the past eight years training them, and sometimes, you know, individually and sometimes in groups.
Anne:And one of the things that I see people struggle with time and time again is that, you know, the why is, is big and it's clear, but like the what isn't there.
Anne:So at the end of the like three minute pitch or the six minute pitch, I still dunno what exactly you're selling.
Anne:And so we have this job title Jam with you, and that was really developed around this eight years of seeing people struggle so much with like, what's my.
Anne:Like, how do I describe what I do?
Anne:And my, my husband was speaking at TED Global and we were, I was at home like watching him live, like, and I was watching the program.
Anne:And I noticed like Ted has this really interesting job title kind of speaker titles.
Anne:And I thought there's a formula here.
Anne:And so I dove into that and I was like, oh, there's something interesting here.
Anne:And then created kind of an idea for workshop.
Anne:And then you guys said like, okay, let's, let's do it together.
Anne:Let's run this workshop.
Anne:So if there's people who are like Oh, I just, like, I would already be so, you know, much helped if I just had, you know, that job title.
Anne:Um, we came up with really fun and interesting options in the last session.
Anne:So if you're part of the Happy Startup or the brand Change community, that one is in your event list, so join.
Anne:And I would definitely just.
Anne:Yeah, I'd really advise people like just, you know, don't look at all the bad examples out there, but, you know, make it your own and don't let other horrendous, egocentrical vain people decide that you know, you don't get the audience that you deserve.
Anne:So, yeah, and we have um, so our 21 day personal brand challenge is full.
Anne:Unfortunately, we have 24 seats that are filled, but Maya is gonna run it again in September.
Anne:So if there's anyone interested watch that space.
Carlos:Where would you like to point listeners to anyone who's listening to the pod, the recording of the podcast?
Anne:brandthechange.org.
Carlos:Thank you very much, Anne.
