Episode 27
How do you set positive intentions around money?
"Be clear on the things that you want to make possible in your life, and understand that money is a facilitator - it's not an end in itself."
Carlos and Ben are joined by Beccie D’Cunha and Frances Khalastchi to discuss the role money plays in setting positive intentions.
Links
Transcript
What would you like to sing now?
Carlos:Um, I could and I know the song that I really want to sing, but that's a private song.
Carlos:Okay.
Carlos:Oh, now, now he's trying to make up for it.
Carlos:Welcome to episode one of Season five, fucking five.
Carlos:Let, let's just sit with that idea of having done five seasons of this, five seasons of at least us two turning up on a weekly basis.
Ben:That's commitment, right there.
Carlos:We, we will try not to waste your time by just whittering on, sorry.
Carlos:Complete randomness.
Carlos:The, the title of today's show or the, the, so the focus was how do you set positive intentions around money?
Carlos:And it's the beginning of the year and it's all about resolutions and goals and being a new you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Carlos:Um, and so, so part of it.
Ben:I think that's really getting into the spirit of January, isn't it?
Ben:Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Carlos:We know by, by mid-January, By next week, maybe 1st of February, you'll be like, oh, okay.
Carlos:I can't remember.
Ben:That does slightly undermine the theme for this show, doesn't it?
Carlos:No, but that's, this is why we are gonna drop the knowledge bombs to help you just really set those positive intentions that'll last the whole of the year.
Carlos:And that's why Well, that's why I was talking about, whew.
Carlos:Big ask.
Carlos:That's why I was thinking about intentions, cuz it's something that's, it's been quite, it, it's been on my radar a lot within our community and with various people in our community who, who think talk, where they talk about themes, intentions, essentially less about specific goals and and more about maybe an energy that you wanna bring to something.
Carlos:Basically creating more possibility to see how you can actually, um, move forward, uh, with whatever goals you, whatever projects you have, whether it's a business project or, and in this case around money and around pricing.
Carlos:And so I, I think the contrast I wanted to explore, well, in my head, there's one, uh, angle where I know I've been told, um, Alan Wick, uh, good friend of ours, uh, coach, you know, he, he's been really, insistence is the wrong word, but he's, he's really stressed the, the usefulness of having a target, a goal, you know, how much, how much do you wanna earn in this year?
Carlos:You know?
Carlos:And, and I remember him just, uh, saying it's like, you know what, what is that figure?
Carlos:And I'm just like, I have no clue.
Carlos:I have no idea.
Carlos:I don't have no way of working cuz like I could reach high and say yes, hundreds of thousands.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Amazing.
Carlos:But that doesn't mean anything to me.
Carlos:Or I could say, oh, just cover the basis, make sure I can keep a roof over my heads and pay the mortgage and food and blah, blah blah.
Carlos:But that's not particularly inspiring.
Carlos:Um, and.
Carlos:The, you know, on the course, the Happy Pricing course, which we have to plug every single bloody episode now because otherwise, why are we doing this in the first place?
Carlos:We know that, um, we can teach all the theory and tactics and strategies and read all the books, but when, when the sort of pedal hits the metal, the rubber hits the road, blah, blah, blah, when it really comes up to it and you are standing in front of someone and you have no idea how much to charge them, and then you have to work out how to have this conversation, then you're gonna be like, well, how much do you think?
Carlos:Which is not particularly helpful.
Carlos:And I think there's something there around not knowing what you need or what you want.
Carlos:And that's where, you know what this, the question that you pose on the course, what will more money buy you?
Carlos:I think is a, is linked to this idea.
Carlos:And I, I'm trying to, how you link.
Carlos:Two intentions that then can lead to tangible ideas of what it is that you want from more money.
Ben:You kind of asked me before we started recording whether I had some sort of thoughts on , how I was feeling about today's, uh, episode and whether I had some thought.
Ben:Uh, and uh, what I didn't say at the time was I didn't really have any specific thoughts.
Ben:I think I made more positive noises than that.
Ben:But certainly one of the thoughts that I had, I know we titled this, uh, episode, Uh, how to set positive intentions around money.
Ben:And actually I think a lot of what you were sort of sharing there about, you know, whether it's better to kind of focus on themes, whether it's both better to focus on sort of specifics, there's obviously a huge amount of kind of, sort of debate and conversation and sort of, uh, different points of view around that.
Ben:And I guess one of the things which I've been thinking about for is, is why it's important to, uh, set positive intentions around, around money.
Ben:And as you say, it does definitely link to.
Ben:the kind of element on the course, this kind of idea of kind of more money manifesto and, and what you were sort of talking about because I think actually changing.
Ben:our sort of relationship to money.
Ben:Changing how we price changing the conversations that we have with clients is actually really hard.
Ben:And so, you know, it, you know, maybe we've got to the place where we're having a conversation with a client and we kind of duck out of it at that point, like you're sort of talking about.
Ben:But more often than not, actually, we kind of disengage with it way back down the track.
Ben:We don't even get that.
Ben:Um, it's not like we've got all the way up to the point of the conversation and then we sort of swerve the money bit.
Ben:Although that happens too.
Ben:I say, you know, a lot of the time actually it's just, we, we, we kind of, we, we avoid the, we avoid the money way, way up the track.
Ben:Um, and because it's kind of complicated and it's kind of filled with all of that kind of.
Ben:Emotional baggage, which we, which we bring to it.
Ben:And we are kind of worried about what other people might say.
Ben:We're worried about what other people might think.
Ben:We're worried about.
Ben:What is, you know, what we are worth and what's valuable and we're worried about asking for too much and all of these sorts of things, which kind of, sort of flood in and mean that we don't actually ever really get to the place of really kind of working on this.
Ben:Because changing your pricing and changing all of these things is a practice.
Ben:Like we're sort of talking about, you know, a kind of li it's a little and often thing.
Ben:There's no kind of magic wand.
Ben:It is a, it's a kind of little and often practice.
Ben:Uh, and so I guess the, the kind of question, you know, why.
Ben:Positive intentions around money is that it does give you a different orientation.
Ben:It does give you a new direction of travel.
Ben:And the thing that we are talking about on, we're talking about on, on the course, this kind of idea of kind more man, more, more money manifesto is this kind.
Ben:It just kind of reconnecting with the things that you know, because money in and of itself is a kind of really terrible.
Ben:In kind of, in my view, kind of a kind of weak motivator.
Ben:Uh, and it's kind of interesting like, uh, you know, referencing what Alan was saying, cuz I guess the, the kind of, the importance of Target, I kind of clearly understood Target is useful for how our brains work, but money in and of itself, you know, actually it doesn't have, it can pull you so far, but actually it's kind of pulled beyond that is, is kind of, is pretty weak.
Ben:You know, we are motivated by other things.
Ben:We're motivated by people we might want to spend time with.
Ben:We are motivated by places we might want to go or things we might want to do, or things we might want to kind of share with other people or things that we might want to make kind of possible, things we might wanna do with children or without children, if you have children in and around your life.
Ben:Or things you know, where you, where you live, or the place that you live.
Ben:These are all things which actually we kind of care about.
Ben:And so it's kind of, it's the, it's the kind of what we do with who we do it are the things that really kind of motivate us.
Ben:And in that sense, kind of money is a facilitator.
Ben:Money is a thing which can make those things possible.
Ben:Money can, of course.
Ben:Sort of change the environment that you live in.
Ben:Money can of course mean that you can go to places that you want to go to money.
Ben:Of course, you know, it can mean all of these things, but it's a kind of, it's a facilitator.
Ben:It's not an end in itself.
Ben:Uh, and so I think one of the things which I've always kind of found, kind of both a, a kind of helpful orientation and motivation is, Be clear on those things.
Ben:Be clear on all of the other things that I want to, you know, I would ideally like to happen in my life.
Ben:The things that I kind of really want.
Ben:And then kind of understand that money is a facilitator of that, but be, be focused on those things.
Ben:Be motivated by those things because they're the things that really kind of pull you forward.
Ben:And then from those things, you might start to get an idea to what you were saying and kind of to Alan's question, you might start to get an idea about the amounts of money that you might need to make all of those things happen.
Ben:And so then you get the kind of benefit of a kind of fixed target within that too.
Carlos:I'm, I'm glad you kind of, kind of tackled the why.
Carlos:uh, I think it's important to kind of set the scene around the meaning of even talking about how you set positive intentions, um, why the importance of it.
Carlos:Um, and Frances nicely clearly stated what more money could mean for her.
Carlos:You know, childcare, facials, better internet, money for posture retreats, professional accountability space.
Carlos:And what I'd like to take that further with as well is like, even that for me, like sometimes identifying what, what are the things I want?
Carlos:You know, you talked about, okay with Alan, alright, what's the figure?
Carlos:And then the figure kind of, that is essentially a manifestation of all the things you want.
Carlos:If you had to, those things that you want and you added up the numbers to, to get those things.
Carlos:Okay.
Carlos:That's the figure, that's the target.
Carlos:And the target is useful as a benchmark, as something that helps you define progress.
Carlos:And, and.
Carlos:Just brief tangent.
Carlos:The flip side, and I think when you're talking about money as just getting money for its own sake is not a great motivator.
Carlos:I think sometimes that very clear number, that clear target, it's sometimes this origin isn't necessarily from what you want, is what you should, you think you should be at because of other people having certain salaries, certain amounts of money in their bank, or this idea of how much is a good amount of money to have and how that can be, a danger because you are now motivated by something that isn't yours.
Carlos:You're motivated by something else else, and that can be draining.
Carlos:And so thinking about these things that we want, which is great, which again, I found difficult because I wasn't sure why did I want those things?
Carlos:What is it about those things that are important to me?
Carlos:And this is where the how bit for me starts to fit in.
Carlos:Because it's, and this, this, I think, is linking to a lot of the stuff that we do in the Happy Startup School, and I think one of the core things that we talk about is what are the needs be beneath the wants, you know?
Carlos:These things that we articulate that we want are strategies to address a need.
Carlos:And you know, I see, you know, again, picking on Frances.
Ben:Just because she offers has just cause there, sorry, Frances , you know, somebody else, but to comment down, then we can pick on them instead.
Carlos:But now, for instance, I don't know, professional accountability space, is that, that's maybe a need for growth, a need for connection, a need for expansion, a need for, you know, agency.
Carlos:And I think tying those things to those needs and understanding why those needs exist, that for me starts to feel like a bit more of a stronger motivation.
Carlos:Because also, you know, those, all of these things are just, they could be interchangeable strategies, but they're always trying to feed the same thing.
Carlos:And, and, and just to maybe.
Carlos:Be more clear about, why am I talking about needs?
Carlos:It's like that whole thing of if you have a need and it's met, then you get a beneficial feeling or a, a pleasant feeling, as opposed to when that need isn't met, or there's a need that you don't even know exists that isn't being met, and how that feels.
Carlos:And that unpleasant feeling and that, that whole thing of like being in a business and oh, overwhelm and not knowing where, where things are going and just feeling uncertain.
Carlos:It's like may, that's a signal for me.
Carlos:The, the business is not meeting the needs for you within the, you know, your own human needs.
Ben:And, And so fortunately for Frances Mark, mark has added some commentation where he's talking about, um, quest here for margin.
Ben:Uh, money for me means a place to breathe and play.
Ben:Which again, then to which, you know, like we were saying there, Carlos, about the kind of underlying needs, cuz in a sense that maybe is talking to an underlying full, uh, kind of feeling for security and feeling for safety.
Ben:Uh, and when you kind of have those kind of feelings based, actually we are more playful, we are more creative.
Ben:All of those things, which of course we are innately playful, we are innately creative and innately imaginative, but actually the kind of conditions of our life kind of sort of rain down on those things a little bit actually.
Ben:And so to create the conditions where those things can flourish, you know, there is a need to feel safe.
Ben:There is a need to feel secure.
Ben:And when we feel safe and secure, we are more able to kind of, sort of tap into some of those more, more, more playful aspects too.
Ben:And the, the thing that I was kind of reminded of, which isn't sort of specifically about the, the kind of money thing, but is maybe a bit more generally about the goals thing, but it's kind of like what you were saying there, it's a very good kind of reminder about kind of connecting to the needs.
Ben:Because if I think back to kind of all of the goals that I've written over, over the years, you know, whether they were things for the coming year, whether they were things for kind of, sort of series of years.
Ben:And then if I look back on those or reflect back on those, the, the things which actually came to pass were the things which actually I did really feel viscerally that I felt emotionally.
Ben:And so I've always had in my, in my thing, you know, aid financial thing or whatever.
Ben:But actually, it's the things which I felt really emotionally other things, which actually came to pass.
Ben:Uh, and then it's kind of difficult to know the, the kind of value of the kind of specific money target, I guess in and of itself, uh, versus the thing around the, the kind of that underlying emotional driver and knowing those things and kind of orientating more to those things.
Carlos:And, and, and this is the interesting bit, I think around the way we are trying to tackle this is that my impression for most people, Feelings and finances aren't a good mix, you know?
Carlos:Passion and, and trying to work out profits, you know, they, they're incongruent because ones needs to be logical and structured and sustainable, and the other is like potentially a rollercoaster of emotions and, and something illogical.
Carlos:And if you are more on that kind of, all right, I'm gonna just think purely rationally, I'm gonna go for just that hyper-growth, just need to create a structure.
Carlos:Maybe this isn't a place for you, because I think the kinds of people that we want to talk to, and particularly in our community and the the, they are thinking about the experience of this all, not the, okay, what's the end goal?
Carlos:What am I gonna create?
Carlos:But as I do the work, as I build the business, as I fall and stumble and achieve amazing things, how does that actually feel?
Carlos:How present am I with that actual experience?
Carlos:And if you're not conscious about what needs you're trying to meet, then there's a good chance that experience is not gonna be pleasant because the feelings aren't gonna be pleasant because the needs aren't being met.
Carlos:And so if we are not feeling energized and full of vitality.
Carlos:Then like you said, we're not gonna be playful, we're not gonna be creative.
Carlos:And I don't think you're gonna have the persistence and authentic sort of, um, appear.
Carlos:So turn up authentically to then talk about crunchy topics, like how much are you going to pay me?
Carlos:Because you're not in that space of confidence.
Ben:Um, so in a, in a kind of very bad, uh, conversational skills kind of way, I was sort of stuck on something that you said about three minutes ago.
Ben:Totally just sort of distracted because, not that we need some sort of diversionary, um, sort of podcast love child, but if waking up to money had a love child, it should be called Feelings and Finance.
Ben:Oh, there we go.
Ben:Which was what you just, you sort of dropped in.
Ben:So I didn't actually listen to anything you said after that , because I was totally distracted by, by that.
Ben:Um, there we go.
Carlos:So there we go.
Carlos:That's gonna be, that's, that's the, that's the blog post that will turn into the book that actually probably with the chapter in the, the big book by Ben about Buddha in the boardroom.
Carlos:There you go.
Ben:Feelings in finance, feelings of finance or not listen.
Carlos:Not or not listen.
Carlos:Oh, yes.
Carlos:Intentionally being one with your own thoughts.
Carlos:There's, there's some, there's a lesson there about grasping, holding onto something there is
Ben:Don't let go, don't let go.
Carlos:Beccie's messing with my head and asking, how do you feel about not being listened to Carlos?
Carlos:Okay.
Carlos:You know, I'll just, slight interlude.
Carlos:I'm feeling slightly discouraged, uh, embarrassed, maybe a little frustrated and hurt because, um, my need for support, cooperation, understanding, uh, inspiration and not being met.
Carlos:So there you go, Beccie.
Carlos:Uh, try to articulate that the best way I can.
Carlos:And yes, Beccie is just master mediator.
Carlos:If you, if you wanna really work with challenging feelings, and work with, invite Beccie into your life.
Carlos:Yeah.
Carlos:Invite Beccie into your life at professional and personal level.
Carlos:I, I, I encourage, You totally lost me now on my thought.
Carlos:No, what I was going on, uh, what I was going on about was, yes, I think the tactics and the strategies, the, you know, whether the cashflow forecasts and the sort of, spreadsheets, kind of like helping you map out all the financial needs.
Carlos:Having that structure, I think is super useful and I, I think it's really great, but I, I think what I wanted to communicate with this is that it's all in vain if you have no sense of meaning around them.
Carlos:If the, if, if the money is not giving you any meaningful pull to making it happen, you know, those, those numbers, then it's pointless.
Carlos:And I think also in terms of the whole business thing of like thinking of it as a kind of a cold-hearted business person who's just thinking purely about how can I maximize profit here?
Carlos:I think there are maybe some people who get their kicks out of that, but personally and I, I believe a lot of people listening here, there's something else they're looking for.
Carlos:And there's that kind of excitement, that joy, that feeling of aliveness that, that needs to be tapped into.
Carlos:And so it's how do you com how do you, how do they mutually support each other?
Carlos:Mm-hmm.
Carlos:, you know, how can we work well with the very boring spreadsheets because they actually tell a story that is meaningful to us?
Ben:I remember when I was running my last company, we were having.
Ben:A session we had, we'd brought a sort of, uh, sort of a chairperson in and, uh, we were having a conversation.
Ben:We were doing a workshop.
Ben:There were the directors and those, this new chairman.
Ben:And, uh, we were having this sort of conversation around the kind of purpose of the company, what a purpose of a company is.
Ben:And, um, this is kind of true if you have, if you are part of a company.
Ben:But it's also true actually if you are a kind of freelancer, because even if you're a freelancer, Effectively, you are still a company, whatever your legal status is, you are, you are a company.
Ben:You still need to do all the same things that a company needs to do.
Ben:You just need to do it on your own.
Ben:So it's just much harder.
Ben:But one of the, this conversation we were having and the, uh, when the, the, we were talking about what the purpose of the, the company was or the purpose of a company.
Ben:And, um, the, when it came to the chairman, he said the purpose of the company was to generate a profit, which in a, like a purely legal sense, that is what the purpose of a company is.
Ben:But you know, it has to generate a return for, for shareholders.
Ben:But you know, even if you are kind of motivated by profit, if that is your kind of primary motivation, actually the way to get profit.
Ben:I might argue is not by focusing on the profit, because profit is a secondary thing.
Ben:It's a consequence, it's a thing that happens when you offer something useful to people who need it.
Ben:Um, it's, you know, it's the thing that happens as a kind of consequence of that.
Ben:So actually, even if your motivation is profit, if your motivation is more margin, it is more money, whatever it might be, actually, there is a risk in just making that to front and center because you lose sight of the fact that it's a consequence.
Ben:You know, you will only get to that if you have a good.
Ben:Sort of positive symbiotic connection and relationship with the people who you will serve.
Ben:Uh, and so, you know, that's the thing that you need to kind of be focused on.
Ben:And the more kind of front and center, the money bit is in your mind actually that will kind of frame and cloud to an extent.
Ben:The conversations and the dialogue that you have with your clients and your customers.
Ben:Because if you see that person just as a means to kind of extracting a return, you are going to go into that dialogue with a quite particular frame of mind, a quite particular lens.
Ben:And that lens isn't really thinking about who they are and what they want.
Ben:That lens is thinking about what you might get.
Ben:And so your, your ability to do good work, to provide good service, to be valuable, to be useful, which are actually the levers to profit is just, is kind of, is, is hampered from the outset.
Carlos:It's supremely important and, um, so many thoughts in my head, but I, we have someone who would like to just join us briefly and share their thoughts given our wittering.
Carlos:Um, but
Ben:in the ing way of not following a whole sort of stream of chat, all I can see is Frances is in her pyjamas.
Carlos:Frances
Frances:Good morning.
Frances:Sorry about the, um, attire.
Frances:I've just put on like a makeshift clothing that isn't pajamas.
Carlos:Hi.
Carlos:We are all appearing authentically and, as ourselves, um, before we, your awesome feelings, please.
Carlos:Uh, quick intros, just to let people know who you are because, um, yeah.
Beccie:I'm Beccie D'Cunha.
Beccie:My business is called Courage Lab, so I help leaders and teams to be more courageous in.
Beccie:Conversations and their relationships and their leadership.
Beccie:So I mediate when there's conflict, but more and more I'm shifting towards kind of, I suppose, more ongoing work with clients, like doing a lot of work and helping leaders to become more courageous through coaching, training, facilitation.
Beccie:And doing more kind of culture stuff, I guess, like helping create cultures where conflict is normal and it's healthy, rather than avoided, or toxic.
Carlos:Thank you very much, Beccie.
Carlos:Thank you, Frances.
Frances:My name is Frances Khalastchi.
Frances:I'm a co-founder of Better Bolder Braver, which is a community for coaches, uh, centered on marketing and putting yourself out there.
Frances:But, uh, it's different because we very much care about how people feel about putting themselves out there, and also about creating a sustainable business based on being true to what your values are and building around you something that's gonna serve you in the long term.
Carlos:it felt like, Frances, you, you, you wanted to share something around the feelings and, and, and needs around this idea of money and pricing?
Frances:Yeah, I feel a real sense of urgency and I've done your course, it's great.
Frances:Everyone should sign up.
Frances:Um, but particularly after three weeks of having children, uh, intensely around me, who I love very much, you know, I, I'm acutely aware of how important it's to create space for myself.
Frances:So the urgency that I feel I want to be able to help others identify, even in moments where it's not so raw, so that they can continually focus back on why on earth they need to make sure that their business is sustainable.
Frances:They need to make sure that all that they're doing is focused on what is good for them.
Frances:And money is another vehicle with which we can focus our energy and time.
Frances:Um, so that all that we're doing is nourishing for ourselves and showing up as best as possible for others.
Frances:So I love it as a, as.
Frances:another language and currency for clarity.
Beccie:Well, I, I really love all of that and I, I, um, did the course as well, your course and loved it too.
Beccie:And for me, it, it's all about the, the feeling stuff, you know, when some people kind of, cause I think I've always had, it's always been my biggest challenge is pricing, um, and pricing confidently and pricing kind of my value on all of that stuff.
Beccie:And that's, and so I've kind of, I'm, I'm constantly kind of, in some ways working on it and aware of it and mindful of it, and it's getting easier, but it's always that it's ever present.
Beccie:I think.
Beccie:And I, for me, it's all about feelings.
Beccie:You know, you sometimes get people that just say, just double your prices.
Beccie:Just try that, it, that would never work for me to just do that.
Beccie:Or, or it's such a, you know, for some people they could just do that, but for me, there's so much psychology behind it that there's so many things that are going through my mind around, uh, how is the client perceiving me?
Beccie:Will, will, is that greedy?
Beccie:Uh, are they thinking of me as greedy, et cetera, et cetera.
Beccie:Yeah, there's so much.
Beccie:Um, it's a minefield, so I think it's complex and I think combined, yeah, the feelings and the finance, I think it's a great, and it's, it's really important.
Frances:I think for me also, it's about the story as I mentioned in my comment.
Frances:So I think it's, um, the ability to kind of confidently articulate the people that you want, want to work with in a really tr sort of transparent way that you've come to a decision about your pricing, with clarity and conviction on what you wanna do to serve others.
Frances:And that what you want to do is fostering them equally, the confidence to do their own work.
Frances:And I think if you can tell the story of your own experience, then they can trust, you know exactly why as you've come to where you've come to and understand in that message how you can help them.
Frances:So the, the, the more confident you are, the, the kind of meta message and, and the kind energy that you can, that you kind, you're packaging up is something that then will leave your, your client feeling a lot more confident about what they're gonna get out of working with you.
Frances:And if you dillydally around pricing, it says, I'm not very confident.
Frances:I don't quite know what I'm doing.
Frances:And you know, that's not gonna leave anyone feeling particularly confident about what the outcome of working with you is.
Beccie:I think, um, a few little pennies are just dropping for me, I guess.
Beccie:Cuz you know, my work, a lot of it's, I think that it's interesting.
Beccie:I'm realizing kind of some of the alignment, I suppose in terms of a lot of my work is about curiosity, courage, et cetera.
Beccie:So getting under the surface, I guess, helping people to get under the surface, uh, if something they're struggling with or a conflict they're avoiding or whatever it might be, or relationship is tricky or difficult feeling they're experiencing.
Beccie:And I guess I'm just thinking about that with money, that, that maybe the power of, um, and it's something I might start doing more.
Beccie:The power of just being curious.
Beccie:So when I'm spending too long working, when I'm going over the, you know, the stuff you've talked about before, Ben, a lot about, um, can't remember the phrase you used where you keep negotiating with yourself.
Beccie:That's it.
Beccie:Yeah.
Beccie:I do that a lot, so I, it's easy.
Beccie:I love writing proposals and bids and tenders and map bits, but it's quite easy, all of the general selling bit and then I get to the price bit and I, that's the bit that takes ages and I keep going back to it and I keep checking it and et cetera, et cetera, and, and negotiating up or down or whatever.
Beccie:But maybe it's just something about that, the curiosity and that moment noticing that it's happening.
Beccie:Noticing I'm doing it in the moment if I can.
Beccie:And then just being curious, like asking myself why?
Beccie:What, why am I doing this here?
Beccie:What am I feeling?
Beccie:What, what's the need underneath it?
Beccie:And then the courage piece, I guess there's something about just being maybe try experimenting where it's not too, for me and I, where it's not too risky.
Beccie:If there's already trust with the client then or the potential client then you know, being bold enough to try and then, you know, start a negotiation rather than, uh, yeah, cuz they can come back.
Beccie:You know, you're unlikely to lose them forever if you go too high.
Carlos:Thank you very much, Beccie.
Carlos:Thank you Frances.
Carlos:Really appreciate you joining us and, and sharing your thoughts.
Carlos:Um, have a great rest of the day.
Carlos:Thank you.
Carlos:Thank you.
Carlos:Bye-bye.
Ben:I mean there's obviously so much in what, um, Frances and Beccie were, uh, were sharing in there.
Ben:One of the things that sort of contract Beccie was talking about, I think, you know, one of the things that kind of gets in the way of our pricing is we kind of sort of try and do it in a way which isn't sort of, kind of natural to us.
Ben:And like, you know, like Beccie was kind of, uh, articulating there.
Ben:And it's true actually for everybody who would be in, in kind of Frances's community as well.
Ben:You know, people who are coaches, people whose work is about courage, people whose work is about curiosity.
Ben:You know, actually bringing the attributes, bringing your own attributes to the process.
Ben:Uh, and I think one other thing, just the, cuz to what Beccie was saying this thing around, you know, when we are trying to negotiate with something, it's not something we're doing to the other person.
Ben:So, you know, keep it light, keep it open, keep it conversational.
Ben:Uh, and so it's never like we're just sort of throwing something over the fence and see how they respond, explore things in dialogue, explore things in, in conversation.
Ben:Uh, but that's more the kind of just responding to specific things that, that kind of Beccie, uh, came up with.
Ben:I guess my only part of.
Ben:Really appreciate Frances and Beccie, uh, joining us.
Ben:That kind of adds a whole new dimension to the conversation.
Ben:And so sort of really appreciate that.
Ben:And, um, the, your, your point around thinking around the kind of feelings, understanding those, because actually that is the source material for really good intentions and that also can point to, you know, what role, you know, money as a kind of facilitate everything that, that Frances was was talking about too.
Ben:So, uh, that's not a concluding thought.
Ben:That was just about 4,500 words that were somehow loosely connected.
Ben:And I'll leave you with that.
Carlos:Nice.
Carlos:No, that's great.
Carlos:Thank you very much, Ben.
Carlos:Um, and what I'll do is I'll pop a link to a little kind of graphic that we created around feelings and needs.
Carlos:And the idea is the principle is just to give you a vocabulary to work with that I've learned from a completely different space, uh, nonviolent communication, but I've found it really.
Carlos:In this space of money and business.
Carlos:Yeah, I, uh, it was a little bit of chaos.
Carlos:I was like other people on the call talking too long and I need to be somewhere, but no.
Ben:And that was us.
Carlos:And that no, that is, is super valuable.
Carlos:I really appreciate it.
Carlos:And it's, it's, it's always helpful and I, it also feels, it feels connecting and that's one of the things I, I, I like about this is to know that we're not alone here talking and you, you are those of you listening, whether it's live or well, the recording, you're not alone wanting to do this stuff, but not sure how and not feeling a bit alienated by the way most people talk about.
Carlos:So hopefully we can find a different language for it.
Carlos:I love language for money.
Ben:Uhoh.
Ben:I think everybody's unsubscribed.
Carlos:Oh, I'm trying to think.
Carlos:Is there a money equivalent to the walrus of love?
Ben:Um, don't think.
Ben:Stop thinking.
Carlos:Stop thinking.
Carlos:Alright, stop.
Carlos:Alright, ideas.
Carlos:Okay.
Carlos:Have a great rest of the day.
Carlos:Thank you very much.
Carlos:Cheers, Ben.
Carlos:Until next week, we are gonna be talking about, just to let you know, who are you helping and what is that important about pricing?
Carlos:Anyway, that.
Carlos:Cliffhanger.
Carlos:Catch you later.
Ben:Bye.
